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bigpearl said . . . Bob your figures are wrong yet again. I asked AI how much to replace the 18.4Kw batteries in our BYD 6 and your go to told me US 1K not the figures you sprout.

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Nowhere did I quote battery replacement on your BYD Chariot. I received my information from Bard also AI. The figures I quoted were USA prices in USD.

Now for Philippine Prices:

According to Bard replacing BYD Shark 6 or Sealion (18.4 kw)

Battery: P230,000-P315,000

Labor & Installation: P30,000- P60,000

Total: P260,000-P375,000

There is a huge discrepancy with your AI and what I searched but like always you have to be right. I am right to question AI and the many false narratives offered up.

Even your given figures are a far cry from the crap you posted on yet another railroaded thread.

The big points here I have pointed out.

An 8 year warrantee on the batteries and while I can't confirm believe has been extended to 10 years.

We buy a new set of wheels every 5 to 6 years.

35 US bucks in fuel in 8 months and the rest from the sun.

As Dan pointed out, it's PHEV and if the batteries sh1t themselves we can still drive it around.

Limited C02 emissions or none.

A luxury SUV with high tech, A/C seats etc. half the price of Bens 508 Peugeot wagon, 1/5th of the price of my SL 350 Mercedes and has more bells and whistles. I could go on but see I'm banging my head against a brick wall.

Owning an EV or PHEV in our case saves us some P 70 to 80K a year in fuel costs and simply plug it into the sun. Even if you rely on the grid for charging at home it's still half the cost of drill baby drill.

We invested some P 1.9M in a stand alone solar system so we could run an A/C house and not get a power bill, that investment saves us some P350K per year or a tad over a 5 year ROI or a non taxable 20% return, no frigging blackouts or power spikes, a far better investment than the taxable 5% return from the bank.

EV cars or solar systems make far more sense than burning hydrocarbons.

Research and don't rely on AI. Hands on is the best way to gain credible knowledge.

Cheers, Steve.

No-one actually wants an internal combustion engine, the boom boom chugga chugga with their explosions, belching fumes, whirring parts, squirting lubricants etc. I can imagine the museum where the kids of the future will be staring at a Land Cruiser the way we as kids stared at the Penny Farthing, not with awe at the amazingness of the invention but rather wondering who on earth thought of that ridiculous thing! Yes electric vehicles have their problems but they're all solvable. The problems of Internal combustion engines are a feature of their existence

I don't know Brogesov, hard to beat a well tuned big block owning a lumpy camshaft. My V8 and V6 days are gone and the silence of an EV for an old fart like me has won the day. playing with the tech is just as much fun and EV's can be more powerful than an ICE set of wheels.

No pollution and free to run from the sun though some can't see the trees for the forest.

Cheers, Steve.

@bigpearl . . . So where did you research?  Where do the discrepancies come from?

(1) When I give my source as "Bard"

(2) "Bard' is "Gemini"

(3) "Gemini is "Google"

When you sprout "ROI" which maybe several years down the road for you, savings has not yet started for you until the

'ROI" is fulfilled.

In the Philippines less than 1% of households have the system you have, so the hydrocarbons you save for the Planet, Philippines & Environment is a spit in the ocean.

To improve the air quality you may need 1,000 EV's to replace just one Jeepney in the Philippines. Considering there are 200,000 Jeepneys, you would 200 million EV's to replace all the Jeepneys to improve the air quality.

Go back to bed Bob.

Cheers, Steve.

Nothing to do with China or the Philippines, relative to all countries.

Cheers, Steve. - @bigpearl

It should be common sense, but most of the pro and anti arguments about EVs (and renewable energy in general) are down to geopolitics.

The loudest voices against the pair are all from oil producers - Make of that what you will, but I believe it's profits over common sense.

Let's look at a remote village in the middle of nowhere. They have no lights, no way to charge a phone, and no power to get internet from anywhere.

1. If they have a river, even a small one, they can generate power from a micro-hydroplant.
2. If they are coastal, it's small wind turbines.
3. If they get a lot od sunlight, it's solar panels

All renewable, all pollution free (or very close), and all require almost no maintaining worth talking about. Perfect, except most of the gear is made in China so it's evil, will spy on you, and the evil Chinese can cut it off in a jiffy.

Perhaps petrol generators are better. They need looking after, are common noisy,  and pollute, but the oil companies profit, so the rest means nothing.

I mentioned my bike. It looks like a motorbike (scooter type), but has gel batteries that last me between a week and a month (I only use it for short trips).  It takes up no space when parked, makes almost no noise, and causes not a jot of local pollution.

Yes, the power station pollutes, but my bike uses tiny amounts of leccy and I'm seriously looking at a micro solar system to charge it and provide emergency power for the house. The total cost will be well less than 200 USD, and it will last for years.

It's all Chinese made so it will probably turn me into a communist - if you believe propaganda.

EV cars or solar systems make far more sense than burning hydrocarbons.

Cheers, Steve. - @bigpearl

Not always.

My car gets a fill up about once a month, often longer. I do a matter of 3km per day, maybe a little more on the weekends.

Whilst I agree that EV make a lot of sense for many people, they do not for me. I could replace my 11 year old car, but I can't think of a reason to do so. It's a bit knocked about on the outside, but it's mechanically sound.

The cheapest EV I could buy is about a third more than the cheapest ICE, but the EV has a lot more limitations. Add that to recover the savings in running costs against the extra initial cost would take longer than the life of the car, and an EV is absolutely off the menu for me.

However, that's me, not other people.

(1) When I give my source as "Bard"

- @Enzyte Bob

I very strongly recommend avoiding AI as it makes far too errors to trust its 'facts'.

You are far better going to a manufacturer's own site and posting what they say. However, you also need to look at other factors including expected battery life, and any guarantees offered on the battery.

You might also like to consider the possible resale value of a car's battery pack. It might be far too limited to run a car, but that doesn't mean it can't have a second life as part of a renewable energy power plant.

It might also be noted that Lithium (and other parts of a battery) can be seen as strategic materials. That makes their scrap value worth a look.

@Brojeslov

No-one actually wants an internal combustion engine, the boom boom chugga chugga with their explosions, belching fumes, whirring parts, squirting lubricants etc.

Oh yes they do want an internal combustion engine!

Many people have range anxiety as I would in the Philippines. And do does Steve, thus his decision to purchase a BYD hybrid this declaration of independence from ICE is laughable.

Furthermore, battery replacement is expensive no matter what you say. And when your hybrid car's batteries wear out, the only way to continue using it is to pay big money for new batteries on a 10 year old car or simply switch 100% to ICE. For trade in, I imagine you can bargain for the lowest price possible to have the dealer pay to scrap it.

Oh yes they do want an internal combustion engine! - @danfinn

I would tend to look at it another way. I believe, except for a very few, nobody wants an ICE vehicle.

They might very well need such an engine's capabilities, but they don't actually care how they get it.

Oh yes they do want an internal combustion engine! - @danfinn
I would tend to look at it another way. I believe, except for a very few, nobody wants an ICE vehicle.
They might very well need such an engine's capabilities, but they don't actually care how they get it. - @Fred

I would think a good compromise for ICE haters might be, rather than blindly  jump full bore into the EV paradise that Steve advocates, without taking into account the disadvantages of range loss, battery degradation and range loss, and cratered resale values, (that 1st time buyers usually don't know about), to lease the EV for 3 years so it is out of your life after 3 years. Then you just lease another one, year after year, always having sonething that works and never having an ICE to deal with.. That is the only way I would do it. My son does it that way and rents 2 different leased self-drive models on Turo (a car "airbnb"). They are popular, not for being EV but for the awesome self-drive firmware. He has a Tesla model Y and the Tesla Cybertruck available  (and a lot more money thsn me lol). It is a profitable business. But I think he also enjoys his ICE stick shift (some sports car) as well

There's no reason to hate ICE vehicles,  but lots of reasons to want to get rid of them.

Sadly, EVs are not good enough at this point in time, but that's likely to change.

Charging times are getting shorter and range is getting longer, but initial cost is a big barrier to mass adoption,  especially for low mileage users.

The ultimate goals of silent roads and minimal city pollution are lovely,  but we aren't there yet.

My contribution,  along with countless other people,  is my little EV scooter. These are everything most people need for short range personal transport, and that's making them very popular.

They are cheap, can be charged at home for very little money, and require no servicing. 

Almost zero noise and no pollution aren't seen as advantages, and that's where the environmental lobby are messing up. For most, a vehicle purchase is about suitability against price, and EV cars come second.

Choices gentlemen, we won't stop progress but we can take advantage of it. Thank the powers that be  the wheel was invented.

Yes Dan, a lot of research and why we went for PHEV instead of a restrictive EV as well as the pricing and warrantees, I will add that recharging stations are popping up all over Luzon these days but if you charge that way it's more expensive than buying fuel.

Our local Robinsons has 2 free charging stations, 3 hour limit and close to the entry, no fighting for parking, and a security guard hanging around.

Bob. Return on investment is a prerequisite in any venture.

Look at it this way, the money we invested in solar and batteries will have an ROI of a little over 5 years and I will add not taxable, after those 5 years we are earning/saving P 350K per year, doh silly me, add in the savings of P70/80K owning a PHEV. Yet another bonus so less than 5 years

If we left that money in the bank it was earning 5% and taxable, (now it's down to 4.5%) so over 20 years ROI.

In the interim we are not creating massive C02 emissions by using diesel or coal fired power stations nor contributing to to conglomerates bottom lines. I am but one person but I'm trying to make the world a better place for my kids and grandkids and saving money at the same time.

My long departed dad taught us when we were kids "If you look after the pennies the dollars will look after themselves" and it has served me well.

As said research and choices. We are doing it and not procrastinating with hypotheticals.

Cheers, Steve.

Here's another point. would you if you could instal an incandescent light bulb in your home? No if you have any brains. In Australia legislation was passed in 2007 to phase out old school lighting and move to halogen and LED lighting that were far more energy efficient and reduced C02 emissions, go try and buy an incandescent bulb in Australia now, not going to happen.

Would you buy an old school window rattler A/C unit or an inverter type? An old school refrigerator or an inverter type? An old school ICE set of wheels or an EV or hybrid?

The wheels won't stop turning.

Cheers, Steve.

I remember the first energy saving bulbs in the UK. A lot wouldn't use them because they flashed.

Now LEDs are a thing, you get better light for far less money.

However, that doesn't apply to cars yet, but it very probably will a few years down the line.

I remember the first energy saving bulbs in the UK. A lot wouldn't use them because they flashed.
Now LEDs are a thing, you get better light for far less money.
However, that doesn't apply to cars yet, but it very probably will a few years down the line. - @Fred

Yes an apt analogy Fred although purchasing a $4 LED bulb in the early days did not break the bank if you were not happy with the brightness or flicker. Would not catch fire either and if it did it would not burn down the house. There have been many instances in the UK where cheap Chinese electric bike batteries have exploded either in the garage or worse still in the house itself as the owner was worried about the  goddamned thing being nicked. I have also seen burnt out Tesla's on motorways (highways to our American friends)

As stated in another post its 'the battery technology stupid'. If battery development had progressed as fast as most technologies in today's world we would not be having this debate now.

Personally I think it's going to be a long haul transition but echo many of the positives on EV's that Steve has alluded to.

I think back in the 80's and 90's the energy saving light bulbs were probably fluro crammed into a recognisable shape and weren't very successful until the advent of light emitting diodes. Batteries and electric motors like DC compressors and AI have come a long way especially in the last 5/10 years.

Lotus we are not EV but PHEV meaning an ICE backup. Great for local stuff with 120 to 140 klicks on the batteries and then ICE kicks in, some will disagree but I'm still not an EV head, range anxiety etc.

As for battery tech? Research and stop doubting. Look around and learn how many companies are sticking BYD blade batteries in their EV's.

BYD is a company that started out in the battery industry and developed world changing tech, branched into car manufacturing but the fundamental business is batteries. We ain't going stop advancements in any and all fields. Glad I don't have a stable for horses and only cars and bikes with no need to feed.

Cheers, Steve.

@danfinn

You're half right and half wrong, people want range NOT an internal combustion engine. The full truth is they will put up with an internal combustion engine and all its shortcomings because of their range anxiety but once their range anxiety subsides they will end up with an EV. We all will. It's just a matter of time! For battery life of EVs look to the latest research, many owners are now well within the second decade with their EV and the batteries are still getting them where they need to be. In many cases, EVs are being taken to scrap because of wear and tear, not battery life. Certainly commercial users with extreme kilometres have a cause to be concerned about battery life (at the moment) but not your average household owner. In many cases, the batteries on their EV will outlast the car itself

Electric vehicle sales are increasing in nine out of the top 10 markets for vehicles in the world. Growth rates can be expected to be higher in some years, lower in others but there's nothing to suggest the erosion of market share for the internal combustion engine will stop. The future is electric! It's just a matter of time until it absorbs us all.

As said many can't see the trees for the forest just like you won't stop progress, not going to happen. Many sprout US 2 bucks a gallon for gas but remember where it was and could go again. This is a Philippines forum and living here one is paying like P60 per litre or like US 4 bucks a gallon. Many PHEV's are cost comparable to a traditional gas guzzler and from experience are far better appointed at all levels.

Equivalent power better, no noise and simply plug it in at home.No regrets here.

Yes Bro I've also heard many EV's still going strong well after 10 years and the tech has by far improved these days.

Same with solar systems, a third of the price compared to 20/30 years ago and have really become viable these days for those prepared to look and run the numbers.

Cheers, Steve.

A laugh for the non believers. I just saw on the Aussie news that wind and solar power supplied more than half the grid compared to coal and oil fired power stations including hydro stations in Ausralia over the past month. I also heard a couple of months ago that the power companies via the government were going to give 3 hours of power for free in the middle of the day but not sure if that has eventuated yet.

A well documented fact that renewables are far cheaper than drill baby drill and much more environmentally friendly significantly reducing pollution.

I see the future and the leaves on the trees in the forest.

Cheers Steve.

Cheers, Steve.

In my view the world would be better if we’d never invented climate change because the attitude we need is not ‘good this and bad that’ but how do we have the best of everything. Try and run a grid without fossil fuels and you end up with an expensive and unreliable mess whereas solar, wind and gas are a threesome made in heaven. Add some hydro and nuclear and things are awesome - but you need some gas! Electric cars are fantastic in their place and getting better but don’t make people buy them - get the manufacturers to fix their shortcomings, while recognising some people will need internal combustion engines for some time to come and that’s okay. Don’t fixate on changing the weather, think clean air, clean water, healthy food, public transport, walking paths, bike lanes etc. The end result should be the same

@Brojeslov

think clean air, clean water, healthy food, public transport, walking paths, bike lanes etc. The end result should be the same

This is the Philippine Forum. I think of the capital and am trying to relate the above aspirations,  commendable as they are in Manila 10 years time down the road. I won't hold my polluted  breath.

Yes Lotus, Manila has its moments with pollution but there are plenty of cities twice as bad. Choices. We choose to live on the beach well away from any city and get the mountain clean air in the mornings and the sea breeze in the afternoons.

Our reason for going off grid was simple and also economic. Our power bills were P 10 to 12K per month and we were only running a couple of split system A/C units and sparingly. As a retiree living here with the better half did feel the heat and humidity especially as my age increased and wanted a cooler home. I have been through the figures on here over the years and the comfort factor outweighed the economics, sure a big investment but we'll recoup that in well under 6 years and now with a PHEV less than 5 years or there about.

After that our capitol investment will be well returned. The bonuses are many in the form of no blackouts, constant smooth power supply, running what we want and when we want and not think about power bills.

I just looked at our energy diagnostics. In 2 years we have reduced our C02 emissions by near 45 tons or planted the equivalent of 8,500 trees. Reduced the load on the grid (much to their disgust).

We are but one home and no one will stop progress, it marches forward.

Yeah I suffer with range anxiety but didn't people running ICE vehicles in the early 1900's have the same anxieties? Recharging stations for EV's are popping up everywhere.

Cheers, Steve.

@Lotus Eater

Many people assumed the Chinese would be the last to bite the bullet on air pollution yet  they've been amongst the first, with many big cities now limiting the access ICE vehicles have to central business districts (no such controls on EVs). It's like banning smoking in restaurants and bars - starts small, ends big.

On the range issue, a mate of mine is a Tesla fanatic. He's on his third Tesla. (He can afford to be a Tesla fanatic as he has a Porsche in his 2nd garage.) He makes the point he's never charged the battery more than 70% and he doesn't like it to drop below 20%. He usually has it charged at 40% which is enough for his usual commute plus a reserve for emergencies. He says you don't charge EVs like petrol cars, fill them up and when the red light for empty comes on fill them up again. You only put in enough charge for what you need, plus an emergency reserve. So for a city-dweller like him with charging points available, the battery capacity and vehicle range is completely irrelevant, and the potential for the battery's performance to degrade over time is very much a second order issue as he never utilises its manufacturer limit

Yes Bro the Chinese are not silly, not one bit and from my observation are well on their way to be the leading power in the world, long term visions and not rip tear bust like other countries win the day. Simply look at world leaders going to China trying to set up trade agreements because they have been alienated by others. Time will tell like the bottom of the rabbit burrow.

As for charging Lithium batteries? That's your friends choice, for me/us we let the BMS Battery management system do its thing, no different to old school liquid electrolyte batteries in a car, whether an alternator or generator will charge that battery at around 14.4 volts until charged and then go back to a trickle charge. A simple regulator.

Lithium batteries are a different beast and designed to be charged to 100% and dropped to 25% but you can take them lower. The 60KW of  house batteries we have at home will charge at max, up to 16Kw from the panels but once charged, like a car will throttle back back to usage.

My MacBook pros, on my third in 20 odd years are plugged in 24/7 and the problems I've had are hardware  and not batteries, 6 to 7 years before replacement. Any different to an LED tv or a refrigerator?

The PHEV we have is set at 25% battery and the ICE kicks in and recharges the batteries, when they come up 3 to 4% ICE shuts down and you are back to batteries and simply kicks in as required, it works well and the 1500c engine is very hard to hear running even outside the car. Get home and plug it into the solar.

Cheers, Steve.

@Brojeslov

Many people assumed the Chinese would be the last to bite the bullet on air pollution yet  they've been amongst the first, with many big cities now limiting the access ICE vehicles have to central business districts (no such controls on EVs). It's like banning smoking in restaurants and bars - starts small, ends big.

Never underestimate the hidden agenda of the Chinese propoganda machine Brojeslav. This is a country where the communist leaders wish to have their 'cake and eat it' Most of todays successful exports (electric cars are a good example) have been underwriitten by the state in one form or another 'See, the communist system can play the capitalist game too'

Beijing  is in many ways a showcase for the 'party' that runs the state. You are correct in that the capital is now a much less polluted city than a few years ago, not because of electric cars synonymous with thir engineering prowess. The reason is more prosaic. Coal played a big part in the cities air pollution in that most homes (urban & rural) used this to heat their homes. Beijing was getting alot of bad press so it banned using the solid fuel for heating in 2017. This disproportionately affected the poorer regional farming areas who could not afford the higher price of gas as a replacement. The residents of Beijing for example get their central heating subsidised.

Communism is meant to level the playing field amongst the masses. Most poorer rural folk do not qualify for the 'Hukou' a registration system that profers various healthcare, schooling, employment & housing benefits available to the cognoscenti of the larger urban areas.

Because of the cack handed communist party's plan years ago to control population growth their is now a surfeit of men over women. As a result about 20% of males will never have a soulmate or progeny. Most of these will have had a minimal education and being piss poor and not able to afford your pals Tesla or a Build Your Dreams (BYD) car will be swiped left on Tinder.

As everyone on this site knows I'm not a big fan of Mr T. Tariffs do not work in the long term. Everybody loses out eventually. It could be argued though that the Chinese brought this on themselves and we are now all having to pay for it, paying for Chinese products as good as they are. Kind of ironic.

Ah Yes. . . . . The Big Beautiful praise on the Chinese saving the environment, especially CO2.

China produces 34% of all CO2

The next top 8 combined 34.1%

USA, India, Russia, Japan, Iran, Indonesia, Saudi Arabia & Germany.

Lotus.

Never underestimate Mr. "T's" agenda/s, many and sporadic are hurting the people and country. pushing the US into an isolationist dominating power,,,,,, the downfall. History doesn't lie and for thousands of years eventually the conquerers slipped into memories after the downfalls only to be to be regurgitated by yet another greedy regime and ideologies. Money mate and little more.

Though this is off topic as we do but reality does eventually bite. I and only my opinion know who the winner will be. The writing is on the wall and changes come both good and bad.

Cheers, Steve.