Is Puerto Rico a

Is Puerto Rico a "colony"?

693POSTS

8 years ago

I understand the word "colonial" comes from the Latin "colonus", meaning farmer. Who are PR's colonists? Are the expat blog members, who reside in PR and have their origins in the mainland, colonists? Or must the connection to the colonial power be more direct? What about a non-Puerto Rican federal judge (they're almost all Puerto Rican)? Is s/he a colonist?

If not, can you have a colony without any colonists?

See also

lgustaf Serial expat

401POSTS

8 years ago

Puerto Rico is not a colony.

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WarnerW Serial expat

314POSTS

8 years ago

A better translation of colonus would be "settlement".聽 The more common word for farmer in Latin is agricola.聽 So from the Roman usage, a colony would be a settlement of farmers.聽 In the ancient Western world, when the parent city became overpopulated, a group of citizens would emigrate to settle a new territory and build a new city.聽 The colony would be autonomous, but tied by kinship and shared culture to the parent city.聽 Colonization was not the occupation and domination of an existing population.

So, if by your reference to the etymology you are asking if PR is a colony in the Roman sense, the answer is "no".聽 If in the more modern understanding of a colony, it was, first of Spain, and then briefly of the U.S., but it is no more.

Elsewhere I have recommended a book on PR's legal development after the Spanish-American War.聽 The author is Jose Trias Monge (former Attorney General of PR and later Chief Justice), and is titled, Puerto Rico: The Trials of the Oldest Colony in the World.聽 As the title suggests, Monge argues that PR is still a colony.聽 I disagree, and would mark the end of PR colonialism with the grant of Commonwealth status, July 25, 1952.聽 At that point, PR is governed by Puerto Ricans.

The objection that because the federal government still imposes restrictions on the PR government makes it a colony even now is unpersuasive.聽 The federal government imposes many restrictions on the states -- are they colonies?

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ReyP ViP

5509POSTS

8 years ago

The people in PR think so and this helps our members move to Puerto Rico, how?
The purpose of this forum is offering help to newcomers with information that will help them make the transition as smooth as possible.

I will not participate in this as this is politics which is clearly against the rules of the forum.

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Spencerazac Contributor

157POSTS

8 years ago

Puerto Rico was acquired by the US as an聽 end result of war, it is not a colony it is a territory.

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Sitka Serial expat

953POSTS

8 years ago

Well... all I can say is the folks I know in PR (natives and gringos) consider themselves Americans.聽聽Many natives have spent years living and working in the states, moving back to the island for retirement or other work.聽聽Many natives have served in the US military.聽聽

Is PR a colony?聽 Most folks in my experience think the question is immaterial to life on the island.聽聽We are more concerned with the weather and getting the perfect mojito on the beach in the afternoon.聽聽

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WarnerW Serial expat

314POSTS

8 years ago

ReyP wrote:
The people in PR think so and this helps our members move to Puerto Rico, how?
The purpose of this forum is offering help to newcomers with information that will help them make the transition as smooth as possible.

I will not participate in this as this is politics which is clearly against the rules of the forum.

Rey,

I understand that "political" posts violate the terms of use.聽 I try and keep partisanship out of my posts.聽 However, I am a political scientist, and my post above is political history, and a discussion of the nature and definition of colonialism.聽 As such, I'd agree that it is technically "political" but I don't believe that it violates the spirit or intention of the prohibition on "political" posts.聽 I certainly try to follow the rules聽聽

As far as your question regarding how this helps, I think it is useful for those considering a move to the island to have a sense of the local culture, which would include their relationship with the mainland.聽 As you point out, many locals would consider themselves a colony.聽 I point out that the former Chief Justice also believes that PR is a colony.聽 This makes for a rather strained relationship between PR and the federal government, and I think anyone considering a move ought to be aware of this.

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NomadLawyer Serial expat

693POSTS

8 years ago

Perhaps "dependency" is a more accurate term for post-1952 Puerto Rico...

WarnerW Serial expat

314POSTS

8 years ago

NomadLawyer wrote:
Perhaps "dependency" is a more accurate term for post-1952 Puerto Rico...

That is, to my mind, a more accurate description of the relationship than "colony".

Then again, I would prefer "interdependency" to "dependency", though PR seems to struggle with finding and developing that commodity on which the mainland will come to depend.聽 It may be agricultural products (coffee, for instance) or it might be tourism, but I hope for the development of a relationship of interdependency, one that is mutually beneficial.聽 Like a good marriage.

Ironically, if "no man is an island", is even an island an island?

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35th Guest

0POSTS

8 years ago

#10

Rey contributes a lot of very valuable info and spends hours of his time running his board.

This issue may be termed politics, but more so government. If politics, it is not the type that any moderator would shudder--like arguing one political party's views vs another, that's the type wisdom dictates should be avoided in bars and family parties.

This "Colonial or what is PR?" issue is not of that ilk. In fact, PR's political status--a Colony? Possession? Union Libre? was central in two US Supreme Court decisions in 2016, the first time the Court has visited PR's political status in 60 years since the so called "Insular cases" in the 20's. This issue doesn't come close to the category of a "No-no. it's politics" and not for discussion on a blog dedicated to living in PR. If I were moving to the USVI, or Guam or Somoa or the Northern Marianas, I'd want to know wasssssup with me and the Mainland.

And none of the above posts were inciting, just the opposite, scholarly.聽

Nevertheless, Rey started it and opened the door about all of this in his answer to another poster which brought all this to bear, so he "invited comment". But when his point was examined, he now says "no more, it's political".

He posted PR's think their country is a Colony. That started it. But the PR government doesn't think so, argued 100% differently to the US Supreme Court twice last year, in PR v Sanchez Valle and in PR v Franklin California

Me thinks a blog moderator should moderate and not commentate about divisive "politics" or categorizing life styles based on religion which he has done

But ok, it's his blog. A few less posts and it will truly be his blog--entirely his own--his and only his---chahahahaha~!!!

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ReyP ViP

5509POSTS

8 years ago

#11

Some clarification, 大咖福利影院 is not mine, i was asked to help. The real moderators are payed employees聽 of expat.com and they make the rules not me. They come from time to time and decide what is proper or not, all I do is advice.

As you seen I posted that I would not comment on the subject past that one statement and I intend to stay out of it, not because I want to control the conversation but because as a Puerto Rican native that was there in 1952 and many years after, it is dificult to discuss it with non-natives without getting hot under the collar, so it is best I stay out of it and not interfear in any way and let the moderators decide if proper subject ir not.

I will also stop reading this particular thread so i will not see any responses.
Enjoy

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lgustaf Serial expat

401POSTS

8 years ago

#12

PR is not a colony in any sense of the word. It is a possession, acquired when Spain lost the Spanish-American war.

If it was a colony of any country, it was of Spain. It was the last Spanish settlement still owned by Spain at the time of the Spanish-American war.

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akabo Active member

40POSTS

8 years ago

#13

One of the aspects of the colonies during the eras of French/Spanish/English empires, was "Trading". The colonies were not allowed to trade with other countries but the "metropole". Trading has been a major factor for the local "colons" to seek independence. That is, to obtain freedom to trade freely.

Is PR allowed to make its own trade agreements with other countries?

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Gary ViP

1845POSTS

8 years ago

#14

NomadLawyer, I don't really understand why you started this thread...

Here's my view: Since the USA did not colonize Puerto Rico, I think it's no colony.
Technically we are an unincorporated territory notwithstanding the nice fancy names that have been invented/used since 1952 (commonwealth, estado libre asociado).
There's not a lot differences (if any) between a colony and a territory. In both cases the "boss country", in our case the USA makes the rules and runs the show. Congress in DC decides anything important about Puerto Rico and other territories. We, no matter if we are born Puerto Ricans or US citizens living here, can say what we would want or like but they decide.
This is nothing new and has been discussed before on this board.

The "status issue" has been dominating politics on the island for many years and no change is foreseeable in the near future.
Now, discussing which option would be best and why can easily turn into a political discussion which is not allowed on this board according to the rules (made and maintained by the owner of 大咖福利影院, Julien and his team) and may result in removing posts and banning of people. We should for that reason stay away from this.

- Gary (just like Rey a volunteer who has been asked to help with the Puerto Rico board)

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Sitka Serial expat

953POSTS

8 years ago

#15

I feel like this thread is a dead end.聽 Let's have a mojito and go home.聽聽

3 members reacted to this post

Spencerazac Contributor

157POSTS

8 years ago

#16

Sitka, best idea I've heard all weekend!!!

Gary ViP

1845POSTS

8 years ago

#17

Sitka wrote:
I feel like this thread is a dead end.聽 Let's have a mojito and go home.聽聽

Gary ViP

1845POSTS

8 years ago

#18

akabo wrote:
Is PR allowed to make its own trade agreements with other countries?

Nope.

NomadLawyer Serial expat

693POSTS

8 years ago

#19

The trade agreement element is an interesting one but I don't think the lack of authority in this area alone adds up to colonization. As a comparison, the UK (or any member of the EU) cannot enter into their own trade agreements. This is one reason UK voted for Brexit.聽

Related to trade is the Jones Act. I haven't looked it up in a long time but what I recall is that it was passed in the 20's in an effort to protect US shipping and US ship building (which didn't work, unsurprisingly), and its out-sized effects on PR were unfortunate collateral damage (unintended consequences). But in my mind, if one wanted to point at any given law to say it was colonial in practice, if not in legality, it would be the Jones Act.

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lgustaf Serial expat

401POSTS

8 years ago

#20

This topic is a red herring. It can't be discussed with any clarity without discussing politics, which is a big No-No.

The answer to the question is "no". PR is not colony.

NomadLawyer Serial expat

693POSTS

8 years ago

#21

I don't see how it's a red herring, especially as I've started it as its own thread. If I were thinking of moving to PR, this issue is exactly the type of thing I'd be interested in educating myself on, and I believe that the many thoughtful comments above do just that.

akabo Active member

40POSTS

8 years ago

#22

I like the Brexit analogy, but I am afraid that it does not really apply in this case. It would be if PR was a state like California. Brexit would be similar to the situation where California wants to secede in order to negotiate its own "NAFTA" to get a better deal.

I agree that lack of trading does not automatically make a country a colony. However, it is one of the main characteristics of a colony, next to lack of participation in Top-level decision. Implicitly, we can include "no military".

To quote Shakespeare "A rose by any other name would smell as sweet".

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