大咖福利影院

TominStuttgart wrote:

The word discriminate is not bad in itself. It means to distinguish between things. When buying an apple one will look for one that looks good rather than full of rotten spots. Is it discrimination against rotten apples? Sure but good so.聽 The question is if it is using appropriate criteria? Sex for example is not an appropriate criteria for choosing an accountant but for a sales person for woman lingerie it might be.

An alternative, and in this context a more accurate definition of discriminate is: "to make an unjust or prejudicial distinction in the treatment of different categories of people, especially on the grounds of race, sex, or age."

Selectivity is not the same as discriminating IMHO.聽 To use your example, to choose an apple that does not have rotten spots is not unjust.

romaniac wrote:

Selectivity is not the same as discriminating IMHO.聽 To use your example, to choose an apple that does not have rotten spots is not unjust.

It's difficult to draw a line where it is unjust on one side and just on the other!
For example, is choosing a lingerie salesperson based on her (not his!) sex unjust? Or preferring a German salesperson because she can make herself understood without accent? And how about selecting a white salesperson because one deals with a conservative clientele who might not prefer coloured ones (justly or unjustly, but you can't choose or educate your customers)?

beppi wrote:

romaniac wrote:

Selectivity is not the same as discriminating IMHO.聽 To use your example, to choose an apple that does not have rotten spots is not unjust.

It's difficult to draw a line where it is unjust on one side and just on the other!
For example, is choosing a lingerie salesperson based on her (not his!) sex unjust? Or preferring a German salesperson because she can make herself understood without accent? And how about selecting a white salesperson because one deals with a conservative clientele who might not prefer coloured ones (justly or unjustly, but you can't choose or educate your customers)?

Come on, a black, Turk or any other race could be just as good or better at selling to "conservative clientele" as a white person. BTW, there are many black conservative clientele as well! SO you suggest that only whites are considered to be conservative clientele? Get real! Also, there are many gay/straight men that could sell the shit out of some lingerie. It is this kind of thinking that creates problems and I hope that you are not a hiring manager. Lastly, to curb your accent comment, it is advantageous sometimes to have an accent when dealing with locals! But I understand what you are saying, the rest of us should stick with fast food.

TominStuttgart wrote:

...Exactly because of controversy, the German government does not collect statistics on race. .

Seems to me like a way to turn a blind eye to a situation and pretend it's not there.聽 While they may claim the minorities are an insignificant number, that doesn't justify the ignorance, especially when Germany allows many refugees to come and settle聽 Fact is, Germany has long racially discriminated, profiled and stereotyped foreigners at the government level.聽 So of course German companies find it acceptable to do so also.聽 It's part of the culture, and as they say, take it or leave it.

Race is just one aspect, and I happen to agree with the OP in the sense that marital status, age and the other factors need not be be disclosed.聽 It without a doubt opens the door for discrimination.

romaniac wrote:

Fact is, Germany has long racially discriminated, profiled and stereotyped foreigners at the government level.聽 So of course German companies find it acceptable to do so also.聽 It's part of the culture, and as they say, take it or leave it.

This has been the case until end of the second world war, over 70 years ago.
After that, there was a big shift in attitude and Germany is now much more open and welcoming to foreigners than most other countries. Well, at least that's my opinion (and reflected in rankings).
German companies do NOT, generally, find discrimination acceptable. But as profit-oriented organisations, they often find market forces more compelling than moral standpoints.
And while the majority of Germans also do not accept discrimination, there is a (sometimes noisy and currently growing, which worries many) minority that translate the in-grown human insecurity when dealing with the unknown into verbal (and sometimes physical) attacks against froreigners.

By the way: Focussing on blacks, as you do, is besides the pont - they are really insignificant here. Muslims and refugees are a more relevant topic - and, while still not well, they are treated much better here than in the USA.

slash1987 wrote:

Ok, not that I really think Germany is discriminative; however, they did not have the civil rights movement like they did in the United States. First of all, from my experience, Germans will almost always hire native Germans over foreigners. Is this the case 100% of the time? .....

My experience; I had a guy who worked for me in Germany (a non-German operation).聽 He married a German lady and they decided that Germany (as opposed to his native Scotland) was where their future was.聽 He was a highly skilled, qualified (UK) carpenter, but when he tried to find work locally, his qualification was unknown in Germany; he had to go through the full German apprenticeship scheme (3 years) in order to get work in his profession, which he did.聽 I know that EU rules have made cross-border qualifications more easily recognised nowadays, but qualifications are still a big thing in many EU countries and many offer schemes for foreign qualifications (not all though) to be recognised, but if you turn up with an unrecognised foreign qualification (particularly non-EU), you can expect to have some problems until you gain recognition or re-qualification.

So, no discrimination, just not willing to take a risk that they didn't have to, which is probably still a key requirement for all businesses.

beppi wrote:

By the way: Focussing on blacks, as you do, is besides the pont - they are really insignificant here. Muslims and refugees are a more relevant topic - and, while still not well, they are treated much better here than in the USA.

When did I focus on blacks Beppi?聽 Also, this isn't a Germany is better than USA or vice versa issue...I really wish you leave your comparisons to (and disdain for) USA out of it.聽 聽The topic is simply discrimination in Germany.聽 Can we stay on that please?

romaniac wrote:

beppi wrote:

By the way: Focussing on blacks, as you do, is besides the pont - they are really insignificant here. Muslims and refugees are a more relevant topic - and, while still not well, they are treated much better here than in the USA.

When did I focus on blacks Beppi?聽 Also, this isn't a Germany is better than USA or vice versa issue...I really wish you leave your comparisons to (and disdain for) USA out of it.聽 聽The topic is simply discrimination in Germany.聽 Can we stay on that please?

I was the one who focused the thread on blacks, not Beppi. And the reason is that it was in response to the initial question of how it is for blacks to live here.

I have to say that I don't see Beppi's comment as a disdain for the USA. It is a fair and relevant comparison to point out that while Germany has its problems; many other places are as bad or worse.聽 But Romaniac, I would respectfully caution you on your quips about refugees, which are unfounded and inappropriate. We can do without anti-refugee propaganda here.

TominStuttgart wrote:

I was the one who focused the thread on blacks, not Beppi. And the reason is that it was in response to the initial question of how it is for blacks to live here.

I have to say that I don't see Beppi's comment as a disdain for the USA. It is a fair and relevant comparison to point out that while Germany has its problems; many other places are as bad or worse.聽 But Romaniac, I would respectfully caution you on your quips about refugees, which are unfounded and inappropriate. We can do without anti-refugee propaganda here.

Excuse me Tom, what exactly did I say that was anti-refugee propaganda?

TominStuttgart wrote:

"Seems to me like a way to turn a blind eye to a situation and pretend it's not there.聽 While they may claim the minorities are an insignificant number, that doesn't justify the ignorance, especially when Germany allows many refugees to come and settle聽 " That鈥檚 what you wrote Romaniac, which indicates your displeasure they are allowing refugees. But they do not turn a blind eye towards discrimination; there are plenty of public awareness campaigns against it. The problem is that they don't always practice what they preach. And the reason Germany doesn't collect racial data is because there is the history of Hitler misusing it. But yes, there is then the problem of not having reliable statistics when talking about the subject. On this issue they are maybe being too politically correct - but it is not that they are simply ignoring the subject.

Tom with all due respect, I believe you did not comprehend my post.聽 I simply indicated that "Germany allows many refugees to come and settle".聽 It's a statement of fact, is it not?聽 How you read that and made the leap to anti-refugee propaganda is puzzling and frankly, out of line.聽 I indicated neither pleasure nor displeasure over the policy.聽 That's not for discussion here.

My point about mentioning the refugees, was in line with Beppi's comment.聽 Many refugee's come to Germany, who may be victim of discrimination in Germany, likely more so than blacks, as they're in greater numbers.聽 The article linked to by slash1987 affirms this is happening.聽 Yes, it happens elsewhere also, that's besides the point.

To truly understand and deal with a problem, sufficient data must be collected.聽 聽One cannot say that there's not much of a problem without verifiable quantitative data to sustain such a claim.