鈥淒ual Citizenship鈥� with USA & Spain page 2 - Spain forum

鈥淒ual Citizenship鈥� with USA & Spain

2POSTS

6 years ago

Thank you so much for your post. I'm currently in the process of applying for Spanish citizenship via the Sephardic law. I was very concerned when I was reading that I needed to renounce my US citizenship. I am a naturalized citizen of the US. Do you know if that makes any difference? Did you seek legal counsel in the US or only in Spain. I have a Spanish lawner doing my paper work, but would like to double confirm with a US lawyer that my US citizenship would be OK. How was the process? I'm currently planning my trip to spain in two weeks to file the paperwork with the notario.

Johncar Spain Expert

1412POSTS

6 years ago

#42

See info here SF girl

(English)/Nationality-for-Sephardic-Jews.aspx

Whilst one cannot usually have dual Spanish and another nationality, there are some exceptions.

聽 When there not:聽 if one is required to renounce existing nationality I believe they never ask for proof of that.聽聽I know a few people who said they had renounced their exiting nationality but lied.聽 They just take care in spain never to have both passports with them at the same time !聽聽

PS you did not hear that from me !

Melissato Member

1POSTS

6 years ago

#43

@morenasix I am confused. If you were born in Spain, why do you have to go through the process of becoming a Spanish citizen now? Arent you one already?

Dali748 New member

3POSTS

5 years ago

#44

I'm actually going through this same process now; since my father was born in Spain.聽 I'm live in NJ so going through the NY Consulate of Spain.

Based on what I've read so far, it seems "renouncing USA" to get Spain citizenship is just part of the process and doesn't actually have any affect with my USA citizenship.

Once I do have my Spain citizenship, is it still possible to fly to Spain using my USA passport or do I always have to use my Spain passport going forward?

Thank you!

dennislg Active member

32POSTS

5 years ago

#45

You only lose your US citizenship when you tell the US directly that you are renouncing your citizenship.聽 Below is the information from the .

Below are excerpts from it.

Administrative Presumption of Intent to Retain U.S. Citizenship
鈥he Department has adopted an administrative presumption聽 that U.S. nationals intend to retain United States nationality when they: obtain naturalization in a foreign state (INA 349 (a)(1)); declare their allegiance to a foreign state (INA 349(a)(2)); 鈥� In accordance with the administrative presumption, when an individual commits one of the foregoing acts, that person will retain U.S. nationality unless he or she affirmatively, explicitly, and unequivocally asserts an intention to relinquish such nationality.

Disposition of Cases when Administrative Presumption is Applicable
When, as the result of an individual's inquiry or an individual's application for a passport it comes to the attention of a U.S. consular officer that a U.S. national has performed an act made potentially expatriating 鈥�, the consular officer will simply ask the applicant if he/she intended to relinquish U.S. nationality when performing the act. If the answer is no, the consular officer will record that it was not the person's intent to relinquish U.S. nationality and, consequently, find that the person has retained U.S. nationality.

Lastly, present your US Passport when entering the US.

1 member reacted to this post

dennislg Active member

32POSTS

5 years ago

#46

The one thing you may need to look into is taxation.聽 Both US and Spain taxes worldwide income.聽 In addition, Spain has a wealth tax and inheritance tax you may want to look into.聽 This varies depending on which autonomous region in Spain you declared to be your resident as part of your Spanish citizenship.聽 Outside Madrid region which exempts 99%, this could be significant.

For those people residing in Spain (permanent resident or citizen), this tax exposure already exists.聽 But if you plan to live in NJ most of the time, adding Spanish citizenship may add this additional tax burden.

1 member reacted to this post

bocheball Active member

29POSTS

5 years ago

#47

I've read and been told that to be taxed in Spain, as a US resident, you have to be in Spain for 184 days, or own property or have your financial interests in Spain, but the first is the most important, to be a resident. I'm a citizen but not a resident.

Dali748 New member

3POSTS

5 years ago

#48

dennislg wrote:
You only lose your US citizenship when you tell the US directly that you are renouncing your citizenship.聽 Below is the information from the .

Below are excerpts from it.

Administrative Presumption of Intent to Retain U.S. Citizenship
鈥he Department has adopted an administrative presumption聽 that U.S. nationals intend to retain United States nationality when they: obtain naturalization in a foreign state (INA 349 (a)(1)); declare their allegiance to a foreign state (INA 349(a)(2)); 鈥� In accordance with the administrative presumption, when an individual commits one of the foregoing acts, that person will retain U.S. nationality unless he or she affirmatively, explicitly, and unequivocally asserts an intention to relinquish such nationality.

Disposition of Cases when Administrative Presumption is Applicable
When, as the result of an individual's inquiry or an individual's application for a passport it comes to the attention of a U.S. consular officer that a U.S. national has performed an act made potentially expatriating 鈥�, the consular officer will simply ask the applicant if he/she intended to relinquish U.S. nationality when performing the act. If the answer is no, the consular officer will record that it was not the person's intent to relinquish U.S. nationality and, consequently, find that the person has retained U.S. nationality.

Lastly, present your US Passport when entering the US.

Thank you for your reply!

So when flying to Spain I could present my Spain passport to clear customs faster?聽 However, when flying back to the USA show my USA passport to get through customs faster?

Dali748 New member

3POSTS

5 years ago

#49

dennislg wrote:
The one thing you may need to look into is taxation.聽 Both US and Spain taxes worldwide income.聽 In addition, Spain has a wealth tax and inheritance tax you may want to look into.聽 This varies depending on which autonomous region in Spain you declared to be your resident as part of your Spanish citizenship.聽 Outside Madrid region which exempts 99%, this could be significant.

For those people residing in Spain (permanent resident or citizen), this tax exposure already exists.聽 But if you plan to live in NJ most of the time, adding Spanish citizenship may add this additional tax burden.

Thank you for your reply!

My father is from Artes (Ribeira) and that was one of the main reasons of me looking to get my Spain passport.聽 My father has a house out there, so when he passes it down to me, he said if I ever decided to sell the property in the future it would be less taxes charged to me if I had a Spain passport versus just my USA passport.

dennislg Active member

32POSTS

5 years ago

#50

You got it.

dennislg Active member

32POSTS

5 years ago

#51

I attended a webinar by Moore's Rowland on US/Spain Tax for Expats today and it confirms what bocheball is saying.聽 The Spanish lawyer explained the difference between how US and Spain taxes.聽 US taxes based on citizenship.聽 That means, wherever you are, you'll have to pay US tax as a US citizen.聽 In contrast, Spain, taxes Spaniards based on residency.

1 member reacted to this post

LoveofLife Member

2POSTS

5 years ago

#52

Did the seminar with Moore's Rowland (on US/Spain Tax for Expats) discuss how to run a US Federal (assume no State taxes?) and Spanish Federal/Province tax 鈥渟imulation鈥澛� ... to better understand what is owned to each country based on current tax laws and the US-Spain treaties?

I have heard from 2 retired friends living in Spain (non-lucrative Visa status) on around $100k per year (USA social security, SA聽 private pension and USA 401k/IRA) that you should expect HIGHER overall taxes... than if you lived only in the USA.聽 This is due to a more aggressive Spanish tax rate, etc.

dennislg Active member

32POSTS

5 years ago

#53

That question was never asked.聽 Also, it was only a 1 hour session.聽 So, even if they answered it, they will only be able to provide a general response.聽 As with taxes, it always depend on how much one has, where income is coming from, etc.聽 It's situational.聽 For example, 401k is included in the calculation of the wealth tax.聽 Depending on the region you reside, your 401k may be below or above the region's allowance.

LoveofLife Member

2POSTS

5 years ago

#54

ksvisalaw New member

3POSTS

5 years ago

#55

All the things that have said are right, I also know a lot of .

morenasix Member

21POSTS

5 years ago

#56

Yes鈥攏ow I know鈥攁fter research.聽 I am a citizen through 鈥渙rigin,鈥� (birth and ancestry) but I only have U.S documents.聽 I went to school in the U.S, except for one year.聽 I鈥檒l be getting everything submitted to a consulate soon.聽 And no, I had no idea about the process until a few years ago.

Lmflmf1 Serial expat

203POSTS

5 years ago

#57

If you fly with one passport going to spain and another going to the usa, the arrival
And departure stamps won鈥檛 correspond and they will ask to see your second passport. Just shown it to them and they will allow you through without any problem.
Lmf

Lmflmf1 Serial expat

203POSTS

5 years ago

#58

Yes, a USA passport is a liability in this case, and in many others..
Lmf

ResidentESPCitizenUSA Member

1POSTS

5 years ago

#59

Just wanted thank many on this forum including the OP for asking this important question, BocheBall, and papa.聽 I live in Spain, am a US citizen y estoy casado con una espa帽ola.聽 I麓ve passed my CCSE exam and am scheduled for DELE A2 exam.聽 It took me 6 minutes to pass the CCSE.聽 The A2 exam from what I麓ve seen seems pretty do-able.

My main concerns with acquiring Spanish nationality have been 1) losing US citizenship and 2) taxation.聽聽As a Spanish resident, I麓ve so far managed not to remain in Spain for more than 184 days at a time.

For those US citizens who have done the deed and acquired Spanish citizenship, please do follow up with us here -- any hiccups, issues, ... and of course enhorabuena!!!

morenasix Member

21POSTS

5 years ago

#60

Think of it this way

Just as there is no agreement between USA and Spain for driver鈥檚 license exchange, there is no 鈥渄ual鈥� nationality agreement.聽 Hence, the renunciation is 鈥渃eremonial鈥� not official.聽 If they take your passport鈥攜ou just get another one the next business day at the embassy.

Thousands upon thousands have both passports.聽 At the end of the day, both countries just want your tax money.聽 You can officially renounce U.S. citizenship on U.S. soil, but I believe they charge you 3-4K to do si.

1 member reacted to this post

dennislg Active member

32POSTS

5 years ago

#61

Regarding #1, see my post on "01 October 2020 16:34:13".聽 The info I provided is from the US State Department's site.聽 You only lose your US citizenship if you tell the US directly.聽 Telling someone else doesn't make it so.

Lmflmf1 Serial expat

203POSTS

2 years ago

#62

@JonSidd

i believe that adopting Spanish citizenship without relinquishing聽 your american citizenship is perfectly legal鈥�..however, it is frowned upon by any american govt agency.聽 They don鈥檛 want Americans taking other passports and will make it sound as if it is illegal.聽 However, it is perfectly legal.聽 If you relinquish your american citizenship, you must pay approximately 2400$ for 鈥渁dministrative fees鈥�. And must be up to date on your american tax load.聽 If you want to continue traveling between the 2 countries, then I wouldn鈥檛 give up american citizenship.聽 If you want to leave the USA and not be hassled with the American IRS, then renounce your citizenship and then you can return on a tourist visa to the usa with your Spanish passport for a maximum period of 90 days鈥�

Im a naturalized (EU) citizen through the normal

naturalization process and have dual citizenship .聽