大咖福利影院

rriiccaarrddoo wrote:

If not impossible unless you鈥檙e a citizen of Ecuador

Even for citizens, it is next to impossible to get a gun. There is no gun culture here at all for the general population.

but there is some game that can be hunted there mainly wild hog and there is some outfitters that you can do a day hunts where they鈥檒l supply the gun and allow you to hunt a wild hog on their property

Are you sure? There may be outfits, but are you sure it is all completely above board? I would have said you were wrong there - not definitely and maybe I am wrong, but I have a feeling it isn't so clear cut as that.

user159 wrote:

rriiccaarrddoo wrote:

but there is some game that can be hunted there mainly wild hog and there is some outfitters that you can do a day hunts where they鈥檒l supply the gun and allow you to hunt a wild hog on their property

Are you sure? There may be outfits, but are you sure it is all completely above board? I would have said you were wrong there - not definitely and maybe I am wrong, but I have a feeling it isn't so clear cut as that.

Yeah, you can shoot/kill wild animals on your property (one of the very few reasons guns are still ostensibly legal).聽 How else do you think farmers/ranchers would protect their farms?聽 Still not sure how you're supposed to put down a lame horse or cow without a gun (bash its head in with a rock?).聽 Luckily, don't own either, but don't relish having to do that to my dog should something unforeseen happen.

antialiased wrote:

Yeah, you can shoot/kill wild animals on your property (one of the very few reasons guns are still ostensibly legal).聽 How else do you think farmers/ranchers would protect their farms?聽 Still not sure how you're supposed to put down a lame horse or cow without a gun (bash its head in with a rock?).聽 .

There is a difference between that and offering hunting tours on your property as a business enterprise.

But the vast majority of farmers with animals do not own guns and seem to get by fine without having guns or having to bash the animals brains in with a rock. Most seem able to get by fine with just calling the vet

user159 wrote:

...But the vast majority of farmers with animals do not own guns and seem to get by fine without having guns or having to bash the animals brains in with a rock. Most seem able to get by fine with just calling the vet

Calling the vet?聽 Huh?聽 In the countryside where it might take hours for the vet to get there?聽 They just let the animal suffer in agony for HOURS?聽 Not any farmer worth a damn.聽 Sorry for my tone, but this comment betrays a severe lack of knowledge about how things work in rural areas/on farms.

And, yes, not every farmer - or maybe even most - owns a gun, which is why I'd be curious how they deal with that problem.聽 But since your "answer" was not based on reality, I am still curious how they deal with that not uncommon problem.聽 BTW, how many animals have you had to put down yourself (not by taking it to, or calling, a vet)?

Edit: Back on topic - There aren't any predators that farmers in my area have to worry about, other than dogs.聽 Though local farmers kill possums because they eat crops.聽 BTW, if you have ever seen the possum (guanchaca) soup at the roadside restaurants, those possums are hunted, not farmed.聽 As such, hunting does exist. Not sure about larger animals, because they don't live in my region.聽 Not sure why unless they've already been hunted out of existence here and are smart enough not to return.

Bigbrad2008 wrote:

I am a vet and have worked with other vets setting procedures for killing animals. Guns are not a good option as people occasionally accidentally shot someone. Must use captive bolts, blunt force trauma (safe and rapid) CO2, exhanguainastion. Or similar things. Farmers don't need or use a gun or vet to kill things.

Last off topic post, I promise.聽 I can agree, or at least not argue too strenuously against with most of that up until the line "Farmers don't . . . use a gun . . . to kill things."聽 As someone who has lived on farms throughout my life, I never met a farmer without a gun in the back of his or her pickup truck (actually, before I moved here, I never met a farmer without a pickup truck either).聽 The ones who had cattle didn't own bolt guns because the cows are generally killed at the slaughterhouse, not at the farm.聽 Also, not sure how you accidentally shoot someone when you are aiming down a rifle at a nearly half ton animal from a couple feet away.聽 Seems questionable unless the gun malfunctions - which is pretty darn rare.

Also, how do you, as a vet, recommend farmers kill foxes, coyotes, wolves and other predators?聽 Sneak up behind them and slit their necks ("exhanguainastion"[sic])?聽 Bash them on the head with a rock ("blunt force trauma")?

Explaining how we got off topic: This farming conversation started out because I said farmers use guns to kill predators/pests as an explanation why Ecuador's law has an exception for farmers to own long guns/rifles and as to why wild animals can be killed on one's own property (technically hunting).聽 If you have another explanation why Ecuador allows farmers to own long guns, I'm happy to hear it.

Bigbrad2008 wrote:

I am not talking about predators, likely not an issue in Ecuador. The topic is killing suffering livestock. Most farmers work for large corporations. These large corporations have developed protocols for killing the animals.聽 99 % of the livestock is not raised by some farmer with a little chicken coop that a fox can get into. They are raised by large farms with big buildings, employees, outside inveztors, written protocols and NO guns. They are usually not even allowed on site.

Ok, I lied.聽 One more off topic.聽 Most farmers (as in number of people who own farms) are in fact small farmers.聽 I know that is true in my area of Ecuador and in the area I came from in the US.

Matter of fact, here's the numbers for the US (from USDA):

50% < $10,000 in sales
80% < $100,000 in sales途
Only 8% $500,000 or more.

So, of the 2.05 million farms in the US, over one million farmers have less than $10k/year in sales. Maybe you consider those "large farms", but I wouldn't.

And, maybe in the city and on the coast, all the farms really are run by big corporations (though I doubt it), but out here in the rural sierra, the most cows I've seen on a property is probably around 10-15.聽 I think perhaps we may be living in different countries ... or realities.

Source:

Bigbrad2008 wrote:

Most meat is produced by large farms, you are talking about the farmers, not where we get meat. But farmers don't need guns or a vet to kill an animal, which you did say earlier.they don't need them and rarely use them.聽 End of story. And you don't need a gun either. LOL

I never was talking about meat.聽 You are right: "[I was] talking about the farmers, not where we get meat".聽 This whole discussion regarded owning guns and, specifically, farmers owning and using guns.聽 Cows, chickens, pigs, etc. don't own guns so where most of the meat comes from had nothing to do with the conversation.聽 Why you keep talking about that makes no sense to me.聽 Also, you don't need a plane or a boat to travel to the Glapagos, but most travelers prefer that to swimming (even if that would be "better" all things considered).聽 Most farmers, in my limited experience, prefer guns to bashing heads in with rocks ("blunt force trauma", as you previously recommended).聽 But, if you really think farmers living on a few hundred dollars a month, hours from town, without a vehicle are going to own a $2k bolt gun, then I guess I can't argue with your flawless logic.

Also, if you insist on being daft and requiring me to prove you ill-informed, I will:

USA/Iowa: Study showed 87% of farmers owned at least one gun (compared to 30% of the general population in the USA - 6). 1

Ireland: "More than 81% of farmers support gun ownership rights". 2

England & Wales: "Farmers primarily use firearms for pest control, whether shotguns, for instance under a general licence for controlling pigeons which destroy crops, or rifles for controlling larger pests, such as foxes which threaten poultry and disturb livestock. It should be remembered that landowners are in fact obliged by law to control rabbits on their land, under the Pest Act 1954, and firearms are a particularly suitable method of rabbit control. There are other methods of controlling pests, which farmers use in concert with firearms, but their effectiveness would be severely hampered without adequate access to guns and ammunition. As a pest control tool, they are often the most efficient, time-effective and flexible method at a farmer's disposal." (emphasis mine). 3

Ecuador: "En 2013, por ejemplo, los gremios ganaderos y camaroneros entregaron 6924 formularios de pre-registro para el porte y tenencia de armas". That's about seven thousand applications for a weapons permit from farmers in just a single year. 4

Ecuador: Ranchers in Ecuador want permission to carry guns to prevent cattle rustling (they were already allowed to possess guns on the farm, but couldn't carry them off the land). 5

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Oh, and not that it is relevant, but I have lived here a few years and haven't owned or applied for a permit to own a gun in that time.聽 Also, I don't currently own any cattle and my farm's small enough that the dog scares away (or eats) the guanchacas/pests.聽

...However, I don't like false information to be spread when I know that it is false.聽 So, if you are going to try to maintain your stance, please cite an actual governmental agency, poll, study or agricultural trade group for your assertion that "they[farmers] don't need them[guns] and rarely use them"(emphasis mine).

antialiased wrote:

user159 wrote:

...But the vast majority of farmers with animals do not own guns and seem to get by fine without having guns or having to bash the animals brains in with a rock. Most seem able to get by fine with just calling the vet

Calling the vet?聽 Huh?聽 In the countryside where it might take hours for the vet to get there?聽 They just let the animal suffer in agony for HOURS?聽 Not any farmer worth a damn.聽 Sorry for my tone, but this comment betrays a severe lack of knowledge about how things work in rural areas/on farms.

I never claimed to be an expert on rural area / farms. Just giving my experience of living in rural areas and speaking with various campesino neighbours of varying types. None of them had guns. Most used a farm vet (not sure if that is the correct term) as needed. Yes unfortunately, the culture is different and the conept of putting an animal out of it's misery was rare if existed at all

And, yes, not every farmer - or maybe even most - owns a gun

I would put it at a very very small %. Single figures.

But since your "answer" was not based on reality,

If living in rural areas and speaking to locals for over 10 years is not reality...

BTW, how many animals have you had to put down yourself (not by taking it to, or calling, a vet)?

None, we always used a vet

Though local farmers kill possums because they eat crops.聽 BTW, if you have ever seen the possum (guanchaca) soup at the roadside restaurants, those possums are hunted, not farmed.聽 As such, hunting does exist. Not sure about larger animals, because they don't live in my region.聽 Not sure why unless they've already been hunted out of existence here and are smart enough not to return.

What are you talking about? Do you think North Americans are thinking of coming over here with their guns to shoot possums? Do you think that when farmers protect their crops they use guns? or traps and poison? I am sure that on a small level some form of hunting exists (where you seem to consider any killing of animal as hunting - which granted perhaps it is, but that is not what is meant in the context of this thread and you know it) on a local level. But it is not going to be something a fresh off the plane foreigner is going to go join in?

antialiased wrote:

As someone who has lived on farms throughout my life, I never met a farmer without a gun in the back of his or her pickup truck (actually, before I moved here, I never met a farmer without a pickup truck either)..

so what has that got to do with how things are done here in Ecuador? Things are done differently in your home country, ok and?

<edit>
Are you talking farming generally? Your subsequent posts referenced the US and other developed countries, I thought we were talking about Ecuador.

antialiased wrote:

Back on topic: For anyone interested, it looks like the government has a new procedure for requesting/applying for a firearms license.聽 See link below.

I imagine it will be the same as every other time a foreigner resident finds some bit of information that seems to imply they can have guns, lots of running around, lots of wasted time, lots of frustration, probably some cost and the end result. No gun.

I've known a few to try and jump through the hoops over the years, every single one failed

@cccmedia just, wow.