Changes in Kitas regulations page 2 - Jakarta forum

Changes in Kitas regulations

1588POSTS

11 years ago

Luke is right, sometime this year they put something on the table. To my understanding they still working out with Ministry of Education how the test will look like.

To much noise about it in the media already since months. It's also nothing new since the requirement is existing since 2003 it was just not enforced.

Talking about the online test, agree with you it would be a joke.

Fred Indonesia Expert

30549POSTS

11 years ago

#42

Not for English native speakers (teachers).
If these rules actually get followed, there will end up being serious supply problems, so wages should rise.

Ubudian Indonesia Expert

3214POSTS

11 years ago

#43

Tom, this whole language thing is a knee jerk reaction to the immediacy of the ASEAN agreement...which was made some years ago.聽 This is typical in Indonesia...last minute, and a way over the top reaction.聽

These ministers are trying to "look good" for their new boss, Jokowi, and that's about it.

Tom, did you also note in that same article that this proposed move by Manpower is going to be reciprocal?聽

鈥淭hey (the other ASEAN member countries), must understand that our intention to implement the policy is reciprocal,鈥� Hanif said on Wednesday at the Presidential Palace, pointing out that Indonesia provided language training for workers before sending them to Japan or South Korea.鈥�

What a crock of civet poop that is!聽 Firstly, neither Japan or South Korea are members of ASEAN, thus the incentive behind this whole thing doesn鈥檛 even apply to them.聽 And, anyone who thinks that Indonesia is going to provide language lessons in the languages of ASEAN member countries for those Indonesians wanting to move and work in those countries is high on durian fumes.聽 Mission Impossible IV my friends!聽聽聽

Fred, yes, I agree, for "native" born English teachers you make a good point, and if this bahasa Indonesia thing ever were to be implemented, yes, it would most likely result in far fewer applicants, as you note, aka 鈥渟upply and demand.鈥�

Gentlemen, as Shakespeare would say, this is all 鈥淢uch Ado About Nothing.鈥�

stumpy Laos Expert

18028POSTS

11 years ago

#44

A little off topic but I can never see the Lao Govt giving Indonesian lessons to their citizens in preparation for a move to Indonesia.......

Cazual Member

21POSTS

11 years ago

#45

Well I think the following will happen:

1. They will implement the laws - without any thought of the consequences
2. Shit will hit the fan, schools will loose teachers, company鈥檚 will lose "Advisors," "Directors," etc
3. Investors will forsake the country due to uncertainty and high barriers of entry into the market
3. Indonesia will fall into a mini state of panic and confusion not being able to find suitable replacements with chaos rampaging around like wild fire
4. People and companies will complain
5. Lots a bribing and corruption will occur with people trying to bypass these regulations or getting exemption
6. The rich will get richer, the corrupt more corrupt and the poor will get poorer.
7. The government will realise the whole idea was stupid and poorly executed.
8. The regulations will be cancelled and the slow process of inviting foreign investment back into the country will start again. However the whole ASEAN thing may fast track this.
9. This will go back to normal with poor Indonesia taking a few years hit in its development progress, for the sake of a few ministers trying to look good by making rash decisions.

Anyways, things will eventually settle down till the next knee jerk reaction occurs solidifying the the persona of Indonesia being a risky country to invest due to instability in government regulations and foreign investment policy.

Fred Indonesia Expert

30549POSTS

11 years ago

#46

It wasn't all that long ago Indonesia banned all foreign movies from cinemas.
That lasted longer than I expected - it took a couple of weeks before they realised the total stupidity of the move.
That and the cinemas were empty, so the industry went nuts at the government.
All that was an attempt to get people to watch Indonesian made films, but without the slightest improvement to what the local industry churned out.
This is likely to take longer, but I hope they realise their massive error soon.
I really want this country to be the best it can be, and daft policies aren't going to help that.

doc_bay Active member

50POSTS

11 years ago

#47

Sounds like you have been around Indonesia for awhile and given this current demise some serious analysis! haha聽 Good observations Cazual!聽

doc_bay Active member

50POSTS

11 years ago

#48

Hats off to you Ubudian for your last logical comments!聽聽

theairyfairy New member

4POSTS

11 years ago

#49

And the saddest part in all of this are those foreigners amongst who have actually married Indonesians and want to make a life here. There are no allowances whatsoever given to us so that we can live and work in the country but instead we are treated the same as everyone else. When my Indonesian partner and I lived in Ireland for awhile, all he had to do was produce his passport and our marriage certificate and he was given a permanent residency card that instantly allowed him to live and work in the country. It never ceases to disappointment me here that as people who have made the choice to make our lives here, no effort is made to make visas/work permits a tad more convenient for us to apply for...that might be something that the government can reassess when they are busy changing their policies

doc_bay Active member

50POSTS

11 years ago

#50

Yes so very logical theairyfairy!聽 But what fairy tale are you stuck in to think the powers to be in Indonesia could ever think of something so "sense-ical" !聽聽

lukereg ViP

2114POSTS

11 years ago

#51

Sadly no one is in any hurry to sort this out once and for all so I guess we will just keep waiting and holding our breath until something good or bad happens to us all. I know the powers to be are being lobbied to review policies and directives but so far not much can be said to have changed.

theairyfairy New member

4POSTS

11 years ago

#52

Hahahaha I live in hope...one can dream

Ubudian Indonesia Expert

3214POSTS

11 years ago

#53

Airfairy, the reason why Indonesia is tough regarding employment, even on foreigners married to Indonesians, is the worry (valid or not), of foreigners marrying locals as an easy end to finding a job and moving here.聽聽

However, change is in the wind, and in time foreigners married to Indonesians will almost certainly find it easier to find employment.聽 Past changes are all pointing in this direction, as for example with the change a few years back making children of mixed Indonesian/other marriages dual citizens and thus saving all of us in that boat from the expense of having to get KITAS visas for our kids each year.

theairyfairy New member

4POSTS

11 years ago

#54

Hi ubudian, that's good to hear. Here's to Lots of good changes coming all our ways...we deserve a few breaks!

dewati New member

8POSTS

11 years ago

#55

Sorry to butt in, but i have a question..
If according to new rules the recommendation of working/staying permit is only for 6 months and what about MERP, if i'm not mistaken, MERP will only be given to people who own KITAS for more than 6 months.. so expat will not be allowed to exit Indonesia during his/her stay with KITAS?
Or there are new rules for MERP too?

rossbach.e New member

9POSTS

11 years ago

#56

Not sure how much help this will be, but for me this year (for the 1st time ever) I was issued a 6 month visa (KITAS) instead of 12 months - I currently work as a consultant. Had a hell of a time dealing with immigration this year too. Many issues, from computers being down, to much more in-depth look at my work duties, job title, experience, etc. I'm planning on being here quite a while, and it makes me a bit nervous about the future. Especially considering I will now have to apply for a VISA 2x per year which means I will reach the 4x renewal mark in just 2 years with my current company.

For MERP I'm a bit confused with the question. If you have a KITAS you should be able leave an come back as many times as you please within the stated term of the KITAS. You will have to process your exit at the end of the KITAS through your employer/agent.

Hope that helps a bit at least

happyhour ViP

1588POSTS

11 years ago

#57

This i heard more often that even one extend the KITAS/IMTA only 6 months are granted. But there are also cases where extending the KITAS/IMTA for another 12 months is still possible.

It very much depends what position you are holding in the company, any advisory title (Marketing Advisor / Technical Advisor etc) will only get permit for 6 months that's when a company submits a new application.

But obviously Depnaker is deciding case by case thus extending a KITAS/IMTA for another year may not be accepted.

Last but not least one shall be very well prepared when submitting all required documents, and bearing in mind that it takes 2.5-3 months today until a KITAS/IMTA is in your hands.

That's maybe one reason you only got the permits for 6 months, if you did not submit your application on time then automatically they follow the new rules meaning not more than 6 months.

lukereg ViP

2114POSTS

11 years ago

#58

Its just one big annoying stressful mess. The Indonesian language test is too vague, the rules are contradictory but the country still wants things to go the same for them. The government is reducing the number of countries which need to buy a visa to enter Indonesia as long as this is reciprocal in the welcomed countries. I can't see the UK dropping the visa requirements for Indonesia due to this nor the USA and the fact that Australia is not on the list speak volumes. Clearly there are too many cooks spoiling the soup and far too many mixed messages. To be honest with all this visa restriction, lack of clarity and hard work to get anything sorted here at the moment I am getting to the stage where if it was not for the family I have here I would pack up and go.

saintjean Guest

0POSTS

11 years ago

#59

Oh Lukereg, do not give up so easily. Indonesia is a very beautiful country and some difficult change in the rule may not happen we hope. I see someone here living in Bali Mister Ubudian has very strong government connection and hoping he will use that connection to help you stay in your country of choice. But if there is indonesien language test, I am sure it must be very basic level. Fluency cannot be require for temporary work visa. Mr. Jokowi is a good man and I sure he will not do something bad. But if bad then hoping it will be for benefit of local peoples.

Fred Indonesia Expert

30549POSTS

11 years ago

#60

Much as I love Indonesia, and support/encourage all expats to learn as much Indonesian as they can, these rules aren't clever.
I want Indonesia to be the best it can be, but that massive potential will never be reached if foreign workers, especially essential professionals and quality language teachers are impossible to find.
Indonesia needs these people in order to develop and, in the case of English teachers, communicate with the world, so I find it very hard to understand the logic of trying to exclude them.
I fully understand the need to restrict unskilled workers, and the obvious chaos if too many of them arrive.

That in mind, I would urge the Indonesian government to most urgently review these regulations, thus allowing Indonesia to improve, so giving my large adopted family of the Indonesian people the best chance they can have for their future, and their children's future.

saintjean Guest

0POSTS

11 years ago

#61

Much well said sir. Let us hope the Indonesien government will listen to your wise words and and change its course of self destruction. But does this mean that the indonesien peoples do not know what they are doing and need guidence from the expat community? My own guess is they know what they do and they understand its consequences.

Maybe is true that without English teachers then indonesie will not have a good future for itself and its children. But if look at Japan, they speak almost no English and became a world economic power. Perhaps it is true that there is too much english teachers wanting to live in indoensie only for a nice lifestyle.

So maybe better just allow english teachers with University Degree for teaching English and stop teachers who just have simple TEFL certificate. Sorry I do not mean to offend anyone.

Fred Indonesia Expert

30549POSTS

11 years ago

#62

So maybe better just allow english teachers with University Degree for teaching English and stop teachers who just have simple TEFL certificate.

Those rules are already in place, and wise.
Does Indonesia need guidance from expats? In this case, the government needs guidance from someone.
Malaysia dropped English and realised what a serious mistake they'd made.
Hong Kong did the same - same result.
Indonesia is still a new country, still finding its way and exploring possible futures, and I want to see that future a bright one.
I have two kids here so, as a father, I want them to grow up in a country that is the best it can be.
Nationalism is great, so I'll salute the red and white with you, and with pride, but I can't support policies that exclude people that will help Indonesia grow and become Indonesia raya.

Will expats come here for the lifestyle? Yes, and that's no bad thing if they help Indonesia.
Some of us, Luke and myself included, have made a greater commitment to Indonesia, and I'm guessing Luke would be as sad to leave as I would.
Personally, as soon as I can get the paperwork sorted, I'm aiming to become WNI, meaning I have to commit even more to Indonesia.

I love Indonesia and its people, so I want the best for them - making life hard for people that can help Indonesia can't be a good move.

As for Japan - they're a bit of a special case in some ways, but have serious problems in many fields.
Look at their problems finding pilots and other professionals that must have a high degree of English.

Sorry I do not mean to offend anyone.

A politely expressed opinion is never offencive. Should anyone find it so, it's their issue, not yours.

lukereg ViP

2114POSTS

11 years ago

#63

No offence taken. The market has always been open to interpretation of the law and how use it to get what was needed. The sudden crack down is not an ideal situation for so many people who come here to work from backpackers to company directors as everyone is receiving the same treatment albeit with differing outcomes. Currently I can't see any end to this kitas issue and I see how it is beginning to impact on people who came here and settled because back then they could and now they are not so sure about what is next. The standards set now by the Indonesian government are very very strict and with a one size fits all it will prevent nearly of all people to come here to work especially when South Korea or Taiwan are easier to gain entry into.
There is still a feeling of hope that this situation will change as this issue has happened before although not for such a long period of time. Personally I have no intention of returning home without exhausting every option but just sometimes it does get become a major worry and the nonsense I have to resolve because of it completely unwarranted or needed.
I can only hope a brighter future for Indonesia results in a more flexible approach to those that want to remain here but are not from here.

Ubudian Indonesia Expert

3214POSTS

11 years ago

#64

In a nut shell, Jokowi鈥檚 government is totally geared for the advancement and prosperity of Indonesian citizens鈥n all facets.聽聽

Politics being what they are, not all his minister appointments were made exactly as he would have liked, but out of necessity to get the support of certain parties of the DPR.聽 Doesn鈥檛 every democracy work that way?

In the short run, for us expats, some things that come from this change in governance will be onerous, if not downright ridiculous.聽

As you suggest Luke, it will be up to each of us to determine if we are into Indonesia for the long run, or just temporarily.

rossbach.e New member

9POSTS

11 years ago

#65

"it will be up to each of us to determine if we are into Indonesia for the long run, or just temporarily."

This is exactly what these policies have got me thinking. I actually told myself I would not come back to Indonesia and that I would stay close to my family and friends in the States after finishing my Masters, but two years ago opportunity came knocking and i was offered the chance to help set up businesses as well as get hired by an international company in Jakarta. I thought long and hard about it, and decided I still had a lot of love for Indo, and although it meant leaving everyone I loved back home behind, I was ready to commit.

When the plane landed at CGK I took a deep breath. I knew it might be at least 5 years before I would be able to travel home for more than a couple of weeks (if that) to see family and friends. I thought it would be worth it though. I was excited about the election, and the new policies that were to come.

Now I'm not sure what to think. I'm in the middle of a huge project for the company that hired me and part of what we do requires foreign expertise in order to train-up and upskill the local workforce. My company also provides good salaries for local workers, who we also train, and hope to develop. I would think that we are the essence of what Indonesia wants in a foreign company, but here we are, being dicked around by manpower who have no interest in understanding what it is our company actually does.

Ubudian Indonesia Expert

3214POSTS

11 years ago

#66

So, today I heard from a very reliable inside government source that the Indonesian language requirement for a work permit will NOT be implemented "at this time."聽 The "at this time" wording is generally just a "face saving" measure.

Tom...I'll hold back from saying, "I told you so."聽聽

happyhour ViP

1588POSTS

11 years ago

#67

Ubudian wrote:
So, today I heard from a very reliable inside government source that the Indonesian language requirement for a work permit will NOT be implemented "at this time."聽 The "at this time" wording is generally just a "face saving" measure.

Tom...I'll hold back from saying, "I told you so."聽聽

Hehe....yeah for the moment it seems they drop the idea if one follows the latest news even though the Minister of Manpower did not yet make a statement.

Perhaps in the coming days/weeks things hopefully are clear聽

Ubudian Indonesia Expert

3214POSTS

11 years ago

#68

"Perhaps in the coming days/weeks things hopefully are clear"

More likely it will simply just go away.聽

That's the way things are done here...float a proposed new law or regulation and see what happens.聽聽

Fred Indonesia Expert

30549POSTS

11 years ago

#69

Or, in the case of banning foreign films from cinemas, drop it like a hot potato when you realise you've cocked up on a massive scale, then never mention it again.