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How can I get into Hot Water?

Sitka
#1
Hi

We need to install a hot water heater in our place for shower, sinks, DW, etc..聽 What is recommended by folks in the know??

I know electric rates are sky high and most likely going up.聽 聽Propane is an option, (is natural gas available anywhere in PR?)聽 but it is even higher cost to use?聽 A 50 gal tank will be all we need.

Also, would like to use solar if possible (cost effective?), as I have a flat roof top that could be used for the solar collector.

Any suggestions?聽 聽Thanks in advance!

Sitka

JP
See also
ReyP
#2
I am not yet in the island but there is a good percentage of homes that use solar water heaters due to the electric cost. However I can not tell you about their cost effectiveness.

I assume you own the house, another option is to get solar panels and run the whole house off of them that way you can have electricity when the sun is up and do not need to worry about electricity cost.

I do recommend gas stove no mater what.
1 member reacted to this post
Sitka
#3
thanks - why do you recommend a gas stove?聽 The cost of use or other reason?
ReyP
#4
When you turn off a gas stove, it is off, nothing keeps heating the pan so your stuff does not burn, unlike an electric stove, also the cost of electricity is out of this world specially if you bake. Electric cost would not be an issue if using solar, but there is still the issue of the electric coils remaining super hot for much longer and ruining your recipe.
S
#5
Most houses have solar water tanks .Definitely saves you a lot of money. I know of no one of the island that uses panels for electricity . It's so expensive and not costing effective . Propane gas definitely for the stove. A tank is between ,$80 and $100 and has lasted us more the 7 months so far
adlin20
#6
I will agree, gas stove is the way to go. Electric stove will cost about the same as a gas one, but in the long run, it will cost more to run an electric stove.

As for heating water, solar is the most logical way. If you own the house and there's the need for plenty of hot water. Cost wise, in line heaters will be economic and most common since most folks only use hot water for showers. You will be looking at approximately $1K for a solar water heater. For personal experience, we only use the hot water in the winter. Too hot and humid in the summer for taking hot showers.

We are still exploring into having solar panels installed on our home. I hear good and bad about it. We may look more into it when we decided to more permanent to the island.
Gary
#7
We've been using an electric heater for more than 10 years. we switch it on one hour before we take a shower, one 20 gallon load is enough for the both of us.

I am looking into building a DIY solar water heater. I'm sure a lot of money can be saved. Basically the idea is a couple of coils of copper pipe or black plastic water pipe on the roof, a tiny hot water circulation pump and the existing electric water heater. A couple of check valves will be needed and then it should work completely automatically.
Sitka
#8
I am willing to build my own - if I had a good plan and design.聽 It can be placed on the roof top and connected to the main tank with copper lines.

I have seen photos of commercial units built for residential application.聽 聽Looks like they sell for $2 - 3K.聽 聽 Pay back on that would be awhile, perhaps too long.

Anyone with a good DIY plan, please post!

Thanks
Gary
#9
I'm thinking of spending something like 500 to 700 bucks, including electric heater (to be used when there's not enough sun to heat the water). I think that 2 to 3K is too much for a water heater system, like you say it would take too long to start saving money.
Sitka
#10
well, that may be a little low.聽 A new basic electric water heater (40-50 Gal) at Home Depot costs about $500.

I will need to install myself (doable, but a PIA ) or hire a plumber (can you recommend a good one?) , plus the solar heater system on the roof and tie into the household system.

All told, if I get the system installed and running for about $1500 or so I would be happy.
P
#11
A. Small tankless gas heater is your answer enough for shower and use in the kitchen,聽 you need to have your pipes ready for cold/hot water . Price $ 179 in Natinal. We are 4 in our family and have plenty of hot water at all times. Needs to be Tankless.
Sitka
#12
tankless - I looked at a few of these type of heaters.聽 聽I will consider this type if it will work for me - could save some $.
Gary
#13
There's only two of us and a 20 gallon heater is big enough. We've had one of those and last weekend I bought a new one at National for 250 incl. tax. The same (US) brand as the old one that lasted almost 30 years. :)
A hot water circulation pump is like 80, 90 bucks. I gotta check for copper/ plastic water pipe. Some fittings, one or two check valves, 500 -700 should work for me.

Edit: sorry, I don't know plumbers, I do that stuff myself. :)
Sitka
#14
can you post a link to the "national 20 gal for $250"?
Gary
#15


Page 13 left top.

Be fast, special goes until the end of the month.
adlin20
#16
For around the same price I will instead do an inline heater. No waist of energy keeping a tank hot and you will have endless hot water suppy. Plus it will take less space and will use same water and electrical connection (assuming they are already there).
Gary
#17
I'll be using the heater as a backup for the DIY solar system and only switch it on when there's not enough sun to heat the water. Space is no issue here, got plenty :)
But, please don't get me wrong, nothing against an inline heater-I've been using those (on natural gas) for more than 30 years back in Europe.
Sitka
#18
Yea,聽 the first choice is what type of fuel will you use?聽 Electric rates are about the highest in the US, propane will cost even more!

Solar will be the first loop and then turn on the central hot water when needed.聽 聽Electric seems to be the best choice of the two...as natural gas is not available to my knowledge.聽 聽

If I must go with ele, a small ele tank / solar combo may take care of our needs.
adlin20
#19
There is no residencial pipping systen in the island for natural gas. The electric company was in the process of developing a system for the power planta but not sure were the project sits.
For us, we are going to install an inline electric heater for the time been since we are only in PR part time. Maybe in the future we do a solar heater. During the day its too hot and humid for hot showers anyway. We have a propane water heater on our rv, a tank of gas will last us over a year using it on the weekends. Not too sure about been more expensive thou, a refil will cost us $16 in Tx. same refil will be $18 at the feed store down the road from our house in PR. So the difference is not that big.
dolt201
#20
A couple of options:

Solar: You will find this is cost effective as the electric rates will go up and the grid is unreliable. If you go solar, put up enough panels to cover more than just the hot H2O, it will be more cost effective. The downside is that you may not ALWAYS have hot water when the sun is down. If you connect the solar into the existing electric grid the savings of the solar will offset the hot H2O costs, again do as many panels as you can for greater savings

Old Maine Trick: Run several hundred feet of black hose on the roof, connect to the hot water side of your system before the pressure pump so the system is pressurized. You can pump water or use rain water to fill the hose which will heat the water up very, very hot. A plumber or a handy person can automate this system and even put in a holding tank for the sun heated water from the hose.Be creative! Stay away from utilities, they are in terrible shape and bound to get worse.
wpotvin
#21
I highly recommend a tankless system.聽 They are available in both electric and gas versions.聽 They are on-demand ie don't run out of hot water.聽 They are also聽 highly efficient as they do not have to keep a tankful of water hot s24/7.聽 They are relatively inexpensive compared to solar, which are very pricey and don't get as hot.
1 member reacted to this post
side241
#22
Hello, this is Ben.聽 I recommend instead of using a water heater tank, to use an instant (tankless) hot water heater.聽 They are about 20% more energy efficient, mount on the wall, and the size of two shoe boxes.聽 Super easy to install, and frees up all that space for additional storage.聽 They don't work so good in northern climates, but are awesome here because of warm inlet water.聽 聽

****.

Thx
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Gary
#23
A solar electricity system to heat water??聽 You're kidding, right?
frogface
#24
My house never had hot water. not even plumbing for it. I was told by the locals, this is Puerto Rico. Hot water for dish and clothes washing is heated on the stove. Cold showers are the norm. Well, true the water, is not cold like Minnesota, and I聽 gritted my teeth and got through bracing it for a long time. Being capital poor, I eventually bought an electric hot water on-demand shower head at ferrerteria for $75 and hooked it up for brief hot showers. The ferreteria also sells large propane hot water on demand heaters for the whole house which I will put in later along with the plumbing.
frogface
#25
My house never had hot water. not even plumbing for it. I was told by the locals, this is Puerto Rico. Hot water for dish and clothes washing is heated on the stove. Cold showers are the norm. Well, true the water, is not cold like Minnesota, and I聽 gritted my teeth and got through bracing it for a long time. Being capital poor, I eventually bought an electric hot water on-demand shower head at ferrerteria for $75 and hooked it up for brief hot showers. The ferreteria also sells large propane hot water on demand heaters for the whole house which I will put in later along with the plumbing.
side241
#26
Hey I didn't recommend the solar electric system, and I am the solar guy!聽 聽(I own and founded Planet Solar, one of the oldest and largest solar companies in the US).聽

I would not use one of those electric shower heads, though I have many times in hotels around the world.聽 They seem to work fine - but there is just something that scares me about an electrical chord plugged into my showerhead!聽

Good luck

Ben
L
#27
aka "Suicide showers". Every year a gringo or two in CR is repatriated in a box.

Very interested in your biz but I know you do not want to turn this thread into an infomercial for yourself. Can you pm me with your link? thanks.
Gary
#28

side241 wrote:

Hey I didn't recommend the solar electric system, and I am the solar guy!


Sorry, I thought you did...
Solar for hot water is great if you use direct heating of the water by the sun.

wpotvin
#29
Our house came with a solar heating system.聽 It was "ok"聽 but inconsistent and warm, not hot.聽 If someone did some wash the night before, the morning shower was bracing.聽 I put in a 240 v聽 electric on-demand system on top of the solar system.聽 They are great and not very expensive.聽 With the pre-heated solar feed, the hot water was perfect and had great capacity.
1 member reacted to this post
Carlos when in RD
#30
What about an on demand propane unit. Higher in initial cost but savings in long run.聽 Course if it doesn't have to be too hot, a black plastic cistern on the roof gets close in the sun.聽 :)
Sitka
#31
I don't know about the availability and cost of propane on the island.聽 If home delivery of propane fuel is not too expensive, it will be considered.

To my knowledge, natural gas is not available.聽 聽Thus, just solar, electric and propane are the only energy sources to heat water.

We will need to come up with something for a shower fairly soon, the black camping shower bag may be a temporary solution.聽 My house may be able to support a small solar tank on the roof, so a combination of solar pre heater and electric tank may be the most economical.

Thinking about hot water use / needs in a household聽 -- I bet we can run the dish and clothes washers on cold and the dishes and duds will be cleaned ok聽 -聽 if so, our actual need for hot water in PR may be less than what we are used to here in CT.
Carlos when in RD
#32
Hey Sitka, for the quickie short range, you can get a little camp shower propane unit that you just open the water valve then fire the propane.聽 This can be set up easy with the std 5 gal xchange propane cylinders.聽 Just that the water flow volume is small.聽 I was in a working class apartment in Puerto Plata, DR and they had a black plastic water cistern on the roof.聽 The water was 75-80 in the morning and about 85 in the eve.聽 I just stopped even using the heat unit the guy had installed unless I felt like i wanted it.聽 Plenty warm for dishes.

Then there are on demand units that are very effective and high flow for permanent install.聽 Electric or propane.聽 Higher purchase price, but way less electricity than keeping a 50 gal tank hot all the time with $0.25 KWh electricity.

Gotta say u got me curious when u say you are moving into a place that's part comm'l use or something.

Oh & BTW, the islands way foreign to natural gas.聽 The mainland needs heat.聽 Freak cold in la caribe means get out your one cotton blanket.聽 :)
Gary
#33

Sitka wrote:

I don't know about the availability and cost of propane on the island.聽 If home delivery of propane fuel is not too expensive, it will be considered.


On this side of the island you can get get a 100# (23.6 gallon) propane tank delivered for 95 bucks. We use ours for cooking only and one tanks lasts 8 months or so.

Sitka wrote:

To my knowledge, natural gas is not available.聽 聽Thus, just solar, electric and propane are the only energy sources to heat water.


Right, no natural gas.

Sitka wrote:

Thinking about hot water use / needs in a household聽 -- I bet we can run the dish and clothes washers on cold and the dishes and duds will be cleaned ok聽 -聽 if so, our actual need for hot water in PR may be less than what we are used to here in CT.


We only use the water heater for the shower.

Carlos when in RD
#34
Forgot Sitka,

Easy way to get the idea of caliente H2O is go to Home Depot's website and enter tankless water heater.聽 They got tons electric units to choose from.聽 On demand, doesn't run out, no energy cost just to sit there.

Karl
Sitka
#35
thanks - yes, I have looked at the tankless type of heaters, both ele and gas.聽 They are an option that looks good on paper.聽 聽The few reports from users I have read聽 indicate that maintenance and length of service may be problems ( I'm a little skeptical... just don't want to be an early adaptor who gets burned ).

The house has the potential to be developed into two or three apartments that could be rented or used as guest accommodations.聽 聽It currently has four bathrooms, and will have an added two kitchens, laundry service and an outdoor beach shower when complete.

When complete and fully occupied the hot water demand may be high at times, and using on聽 demand heaters would require several units at different locations to serve the whole building, so a tank type heater may be the most cost efficient.聽

I need the advice of an experienced plumber on this one.
Carlos when in RD
#36
Sounds like ur thinkin toward short term, vacation rental.聽 If long term, you'd want separate utility setups and tenet pay their own way.聽 There are mfg's been makin tankless a long time and reliable.聽 I managed a sports bar/restaurant in Punta Cana and we installed a tankless heater doing the kitchen remodel.聽 Worked it's li'l heart out and did good while I was there.

I have a 4-plex in escrow now so I get the "being a landlord" thing totally.聽 Renting to retired baby-boomers from cold northern states is my long term PR strategy.

BTW, on the tank style, it seems like down there instead of wrapping in an insulation blanket one could locate outside and the ambient temp would get you 1/2 way there.聽 :)
Sitka
#37
yes, the potential is for short term vacation rentals (on the beach)聽 so seperate metering is not needed.

I don't know the temperture of the cold water coming into the building, but it is most likely about 50 - 60 degrees in PR?聽 聽

A solar pre heater on the roof could help and then feed the hot system - either tank or tankless type system.聽

I am open to suggestions from those who have knowledge and experience with these systems.聽

I can do most of the grunt work myself, but may need a professional for the heavy lifting.
Carlos when in RD
#38
Hey Sitka,

Gotta change ur northeast way of thinking man.聽 The water on the beach is 75 middle of the night.聽 Once u get to PR, ain't nothin gonna be 50 unless it's been in the fridge.聽 :)
1 member reacted to this post
Sitka
#39

Carlos when in RD wrote:

Hey Sitka,

Gotta change ur northeast way of thinking man.聽 The water on the beach is 75 middle of the night.聽 Once u get to PR, ain't nothin gonna be 50 unless it's been in the fridge.聽 :)


That sounds like a great plan聽 :cool:

My priorities may need a readjustment - a glass of lemonade on the rocks under the coconut tree in the shade is for me!

Gary
#40

Sitka wrote:

My priorities may need a readjustment - a glass of lemonade on the rocks under the coconut tree in the shade is for me!


You're getting in the right mood for the Caribbean! :D

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