Puerto Rico vs. Expat Havens in the Americas

seoulguy Contributor

143POSTS

7 years ago

I have read the posts, and I can see that many are a reflection of (let's face it) the increasing bad to shockingly bad behavior worldwide. This puts would-be expats in an awkward position, perhaps having to make the best choice among the many bad choices out there. Everyone knows the highly touted expat havens in the Americas, e.g., Costa Rica and Panama.聽 With enough capital to qualify for retirement in such places, I've done some homework in comparison to PR. I can make a list.

Colombia: Medellin, not the murder capital of the world anymore, but can't breathe the air either. A lot of unhappiness in the forum posts, reflective of those who would jump out of the frying pan into the fire without doing their due diligence. Can't find one place on the northern Caribbean coast that I would spend two minutes in, let alone retirement, including Santa Marta. Just dense and dirty. Cali -- out of the question.
Mexico: this is the murder capital of the world, including expat seniors; election of AMLO speaks volumes; you think PR is corrupt -- here they just kill politicians. I guess one could "run" to a place like Cancun, but you can't "hide."
Costa Rica: shocked to find actual reports of homicides on the increase in this once highly touted tranquil and stable (?) place. Higher COL than other countries.
Nicaragua: tried to recruit expats with low financial requirements. Today, snipers are aimed at students hiding in university classrooms. Expats fleeing.
Panama: Politics can turn on a dime, along with attitude toward expats. Typically, health insurance coverage is available to pensionados -- CAJA in CR and EPS in CO, but here, I can't find this benefit, just a bunch of useless senior discounts.聽 Also high COL in the cities. Borders Darien -- need I say more.
Belize: QR program is inhospitable to those on fixed retirements less than $2500 USD.
Ecuador: Looks like this one is popular with possibly the least negative feedback.

US State Department country profiles/warnings a good place to start if you're like me in comparing PR to other warm weather locations.

1 member reacted to this post

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sandrarduncan Serial expat

487POSTS

7 years ago

I have done lots of research on other countries before moving to pr.聽 To much red tape, and instability in these other countries
Ecuador sounded the most promising
But last year they starting making it mandatory for everyone to get insurance and then their insurance is based on a percentage of your income and for many expats its just to much money.聽 When do more research , Thailand and mayalasia has alot to offer however more red tape for retirement those places. And the cost of plane tickets to the us are expensive

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Mrkpytn Serial expat

373POSTS

7 years ago

I lived in Peru and traveled through Colombia, Ecuador and Bolivia.聽 I went back to Peru to consider living in the Inca Valley outside of Cuzco. I was in my 40'/50's age range. Just old enough to consider mobility at an older age and having to be displaced in the event of political turmoil or potential transportation crippling due to earth quakes, etc. I had lived in Peru a couple of years with minor incidents. When I returned years later it was a whole different range of experiences. I was robbed in Lima. When I arrived to Cuzco as soon as I stepped into the Hotel room an earthquake shook and all the employees ran out of the building while聽 i tried to balance myself. Next I got sorroche聽 (altitude sickness) and when I tried to get to a lower altitude the trains were not running as the valley was on fire. This was my wake up call for living in places like this and as the body gets challenged with the aging process this scenario would not work and transporting myself back to the mainland would not be an option due to severe culture shock. This is why I settled for Puerto Rico. I get聽 a smattering of a lot of South American tropical mountain terrain with easy access to beaches and basic necessities especially with USPS and it allows me to conduct m Etsy mail order business. Once I explored Puerto Rico it was an easy decision. This was made 17 years ago and even after the Hurricane I feel the same way and since the hurricane I now know how to prepare for a potential other big one that will surely come some day. It is better than a blizzard if I had to choose.

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Sitka Serial expat

953POSTS

7 years ago

We choose PR over Central America because it is part of the USA. Access to a legal system, citizen rights and security.聽 Also flights to east coast are reasonable.聽

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NomadLawyer Serial expat

693POSTS

7 years ago

Apparently, Portugal beats them all, even with them in the Euro zone.

lgustaf Serial expat

401POSTS

7 years ago

Portugal is very expensive.

seoulguy Contributor

143POSTS

7 years ago

Appreciate Mrkpytn's candid report as the issue is whether it would if be better to just accept the somewhat disproportionate negative, but knowable,聽 realities of PR, or do the red tape dance, strike out into the great unknown and take your chances. Mrkpytn says he came to PR in about 2000. I lived and worked in PR at Colegio Sargrado Corazon, Santurce (not the big campus it is now) in the '70s, still the era of Luis Munoz Marin and Luis Ferrer. No concerns about lunatic drivers, narco, health care (had an primary and surgeon from Michigan at Ashford Med Center). I suppose there were blackouts, but I don't remember any in the Condado, at least. I'm just looking at alternatives, and it seems that quality of life issues are imperiled no matter what one does.

One question for Mrkpytn, as I have a business dependent on the Internet. How did you manage your mail order business after Irma/Maria, or anytime a transformer blows? Generator?

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NomadLawyer Serial expat

693POSTS

7 years ago

Portugal is very cheap, in my experience, and crime, particularly violent crime, is also quite low, especially compared to Latin America and the Caribbean.

sandrarduncan Serial expat

487POSTS

7 years ago

True. Also the sontvhave drug laws聽 there,聽 that is the reason.聽 Drug uae haa gone domw by 50% because ofbthe kaw.聽 Bow yiu knkw qhy crime is down

ReyP ViP

5509POSTS

7 years ago

#10

All countries have wrinkles no matter how wonderful they are.

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NomadLawyer Serial expat

693POSTS

7 years ago

#11

Here is a of why PR will remain a better choice as a retirement destination than anywhere else in the Americas outside of N. America.

That said, I still think Portugal deserves a look, as does Thailand, which is a popular place for my Swiss colleagues to retire to.

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WarnerW Serial expat

314POSTS

7 years ago

#12

Seems to me that you can have at most only two of the following:

Low cost of living
Security/rule of law
Quality public services

As a rule, less-developed countries offer the first, but not the second or third.聽 The mature economies of the developed world are capable of offering the second and third, but at a high price.聽

Those wishing to retire and stretch their retirement savings must decide where and how they will make concessions.聽 Can you accept greater risk of property crime?聽 Violent crime?聽 Can you accept greater risk of seizure of your local assets?聽 Can you accept unreliable and insufficient power, water and internet?聽 Can you accept poor roads, bridges, airports?聽 Can you accept unreliable supply of potable water?聽 Can you accept rampant public corruption?聽 Public incompetence and nepotism?

Some of the above list are common in Puerto Rico.聽 Many of them can be mitigated against by foresight and careful planning.聽聽

Thailand and Portugal are, I think, both reasonable choices, especially for those without significant ties to the "mainland".聽 I wrote my dissertation on Thailand.聽 It is much like Puerto Rico, a beautiful country with warm, wonderful people.聽 Within Latin America, outside of PR I'd consider the DR as well as Colombia.聽 Of those two, the DR is booming as an expat destination.聽 Colombia strikes me as a likely candidate for the next such destination.聽 But PR is my choice, though I'm certainly well aware of the challenges that await.

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Mrkpytn Serial expat

373POSTS

7 years ago

#13

USPS is one of the big benefits of living in Puerto Rico. I ship my products to the States and order a lot of our organic food items on line.

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seoulguy Contributor

143POSTS

7 years ago

#14

As usual on this forum, Nomad and Warner W give insightful remarks. Would-be expats get themselves into tragic (and expensive) messes by not considering the "can you accept this" list. Note that expats drive up costs. When I lived in a place called Ajijic, south of GDL on the north shore of Lake Chapala, you could literally disappear into a huge 3 BR furnished home for around $500 USD/month. Direct TV and all the amenities. That was around the time Bush went into Iraq. Try doing that now.聽 Same in CO. If you want to live in the 1/2 estrato in Medellin, like Poblado or Belen, you'll pay dearly for it, and that virtually erases the whole idea of COL savings for those on a fixed income.

I'd just like to claim a space and stay as far away from the "can you accept this" list as possible. For example, have been reading where those with new residence visas in Panama are advised to just stay away from locals. Can't imagine what "mitigating" factors Warner W is talking about. Incoming flights at Aguadilla from Bogota and Quito. Where in the world are these people going??

So, meanwhile, PR is not looking all that bad right now.

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WarnerW Serial expat

314POSTS

7 years ago

#15

seoulguy wrote:
Can't imagine what "mitigating" factors Warner W is talking about.

Thanks for the kind words Seoulguy.聽 I said that the problems could be mitigated against, that is, advance steps could be taken to reduce their likelihood or severity.聽 Take property crime for instance.聽 Keeping the property well-lit, doors locked and a security system will all reduce the odds of falling prey to property crime.聽 As for confiscation of assets by the state, off-shore accounts keep liquid assets out of the reach of despots.

As for poor provision of public services, that too can be mitigated against.聽 If you know that the fire department is under-equipped and under-staffed, install a sprinkler system.聽 If there are frequent power outages, buy generators, or other alternative sources of power.聽

In short, take advice from the Boy Scouts, and "Be Prepared".

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Elcalipocho Active member

61POSTS

7 years ago

#16

I have two groups of retired friends that spend 6 months out of the year in Isabela/Aguadilla area and the other 6 months in California.

They enjoy their time in PR so much they would spend even more time there, but they have family in California, and the summers in PR are pretty muggy.

They鈥檝e been doing this for 7 years now, and they鈥檝e never had a problem with services or crime (knock on wood).

I hope to do similar some day when the time is right.
They have had ocassional blackouts and water cut off for days at a time this past year (2018) when authorities were doing post Maria repair work.

Keep in mind, mainland USA is a pretty violent place with all the gun violence. And there is a HUGE amount of property crime in California, although the police and courts are more reliable than PR鈥檚.聽
But ironically the police in California seem overwhelmed to seriously investigate burglaries and stolen cars.
And don鈥檛 let me get you started on the daily muggings and car break-ins in San Francisco.

annabfalter Contributor

124POSTS

7 years ago

#17

Portugal is WONDERFUL, not too expensive, very high standard of living.聽 However, it is far from the US mainland and expensive to get back and forth.聽 If I did not have close family in the States, I would definitely consider Portugal or Spain.

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annabfalter Contributor

124POSTS

7 years ago

#18

Good point vis a vis crime in the USA.聽聽Our house is on the quieter western end of the island, so we haven't had much trouble.聽 So far, it would seem that violence and killings are mainly connected to illegal drugs.

seoulguy Contributor

143POSTS

7 years ago

#19

Thanks, Elcalipocho, for the comment on this near dormant thread. I was looking for a response and found it in the title of a Wash Post article today, something to the effect of "U.S. horrible place to be a middle-class consumer".聽 No kidding! I'm on a virtual fixed income, priced out of just about everywhere, not to mention purely hostile environments. I tried to cross my own street corner with signals out. Instead of moving his behind to direct traffic, cop just sits there looking at me dodging traffic. The older you get, the less likely you're going to be able to afford the lifestyle you want. I'd be squirreling away as much as you can in that retirement fund. With changing "leadership" to the far right and far left in Europe (mostly far right), even Mexico, AMLO, and Colombia, El Duque, residency visa holders are holding their breath, the same visa holders that are driving up prices outside the continental U.S. I'd like to return to Palm Springs or San Jose, CA, but couldn't begin to afford the housing. But the same is true now in Medellin, Panama City, San Jose, CR, or you name it. Ever seen the $1000/month closets for rent anywhere in the Hawaiian Islands?

By the way the last video I saw of Aguadilla was an aerial shot ---- sea of blue tarps. When I worked in PR years ago (Luis Ferre was gov), I lived like a Puerto Rican. I guess I could again.