Is KITAP holder allowed to work? Thank you for your time

11POSTS

11 years ago

Hello all,

I'm French and my wife is Indonesian from Depok,Jakarta.
I'm currently holding a KITAS sponsored by my company in Jakarta.
We heard about a possibility to convert it to KITAP as we've been married for 8 years now.
However,we're not sure if I can work legally if I have the KITAP...
Please help...

Terima kasih,
Mickael

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Fred Indonesia Expert

30549POSTS

11 years ago

Yes (ish)
A wife sponsored KITAP should be accepted as a legal document as far as working goes.
The freedom to work on a KITAP is mentioned in UU6/2011.
The labour department still want you to have a work permit but there seems to be some debate on this question.
I haven't kept up on the finer points of this as it no longer applies to me.

happyhour ViP

1588POSTS

11 years ago

If you change from company sponsored working KITAS to a KITAP sponsored by your wife, you can not work for any company without having a IMTA from Manpower Department.

If your wife runs a small business you can actually work to support the family as long you keep low profile....still a grey zone somehow

Fred Indonesia Expert

30549POSTS

11 years ago

happyhour wrote:
If you change from company sponsored working KITAS to a KITAP sponsored by your wife, you can not work for any company without having a IMTA from Manpower Department.

If your wife runs a small business you can actually work to support the family as long you keep low profile....still a grey zone somehow

Last I was told, the 'freedom to work' applied without serious question if you worked in your family's business but there was a large question mark over working for a company without a work permit.
As far as I'm aware, this hasn't been put to the test, but I'm open to correction on that issue.

Mickael Hebert Member

11POSTS

11 years ago

Thank you mas fred and happyhour for your replies.
My employment contract ends next week ...the agent that's hired by my company asks for a crazy money to the HR,in case I need their service(HR is聽 only a messenger),knowing that my KITAS will be cancelled...
My wife is gathering some informations from her friends in Bali but so far none has done it without paying big money(around Rp 10million for KITAS Sponsor Istri & more for KITAP).

happyhour ViP

1588POSTS

11 years ago

If your contract ends next week usually you will have to make a EPO first which will take about 4 days and afterwards you have 7 or 10 days time to leave the country.

Don't think you can change sponsorship to your wife without leaving since time is far too short for arrangements.

Bear in mind we do have fasting time now things will go pretty slow also additional money needs to be paid here and there....thats just normal.

happyhour ViP

1588POSTS

11 years ago

Mas fred, if your wife sponsor's your KITAP and you find a company willing to hire you it is possible but still the company needs to get the IMTA for you....i heard it is possible but it does not mean it's guaranteed. It depends on the Manpower, they decide case by case.

Ubudian Indonesia Expert

3214POSTS

11 years ago

"Last I was told, the 'freedom to work' applied without serious question if you worked in your family's business but there was a large question mark over working for a company without a work permit."

That's exactly my understanding regarding KITAP visas as well Fred.

Fred Indonesia Expert

30549POSTS

11 years ago

happyhour wrote:
Mas fred, if your wife sponsor's your KITAP and you find a company willing to hire you it is possible but still the company needs to get the IMTA for you....i heard it is possible but it does not mean it's guaranteed. It depends on the Manpower, they decide case by case.

That's pretty much as I understood the actual position, but I believe there are some who disagree with the work permit requirement,quoting UU06/11, pasal 61.

pemegang Izin Tinggal Tetap ....... dapat melakukan pekerjaan
(KITAP holders are allowed to work)

I have no idea if the conflict has been tested but it may be quite a risk for someone to do so.

Ubudian Indonesia Expert

3214POSTS

11 years ago

#10

Fred, I agree.聽 It is also my understanding that the interpretation, as well as the administration of that law will not include KITAP holders working in an earnings capacity which is unrelated to their spouse's business interests without a work permit.

Fred Indonesia Expert

30549POSTS

11 years ago

#11

Ubudian wrote:
Fred, I agree.聽 It is also my understanding that the interpretation, as well as the administration of that law will not include KITAP holders working in an earnings capacity which is unrelated to their spouse's business interests without a work permit.

Dude, it's too early in the morning for me to work that one out.
Are you saying, the law is seen to allow KITAP holders to work without a work permit?
If so, who says so?

Mickael Hebert Member

11POSTS

11 years ago

#12

It's better safe than sorry...I think I'll wait a bit to have the KITAP :-(
Since I need to leave the country soon anyway, may as well visit my family back in France.
Thank you happyhour, mas fred & ubudian for giving me your time, really appreciate it!
Take care gentlemen!

Fred Indonesia Expert

30549POSTS

11 years ago

#13

You're very welcome.
Your KITAP sounds like a forgone conclusion and you know you're allowed to work on the KITAP.
The only question mark is the work permit.
If your employer is willing to do that anyway, there's no issue.

happyhour ViP

1588POSTS

11 years ago

#14

Mickael, you are welcome. Enjoy your holiday and try to gather some more info while away.

Ubudian Indonesia Expert

3214POSTS

11 years ago

#15

"Are you saying, the law is seen to allow KITAP holders to work without a work permit?聽 If so, who says so?"

Only if working for a business owned by your Indonesian spouse...and without a working permit.

Is that a surprise to you?

Fred Indonesia Expert

30549POSTS

11 years ago

#16

Ubudian wrote:
"Are you saying, the law is seen to allow KITAP holders to work without a work permit?聽 If so, who says so?"

Only if working for a business owned by your Indonesian spouse...and without a working permit.

Is that a surprise to you?

Not even slightly.
Minor details such as a law wouldn't be any problem for pen pushers with an agenda.
This seems to be a fine example of the spirit of a law, even the actual wording, being not so much as a 'no entry' sign to some.

Any idea if this has ever been tested in court? It seems like dodgy ground.

Ubudian Indonesia Expert

3214POSTS

11 years ago

#17

This is the way the law is being interpreted by immigration in Bali, and if you think about it, it makes perfect sense.聽

As explained to me, its understood that a spouse is going to help the other spouse in his or her business for the benefit of the family.聽 With a KITAP the foreign spouse has clearly made a commitment in their marriage, and has proven longevity in that marriage.聽 In reality, the KITAP is just one step before full citizenship.聽

Surely you can appreciate that most laws written here are purposefully vague and left to the interpretation of those authorities charged with the responsibility to enforce those laws.

Fred Indonesia Expert

30549POSTS

11 years ago

#18

I sure can.
However, in my opinion, any working husband is contributing to the marriage and showing commitment to his family.
I'm now awaiting the result of the election before I go further down the WNI road.

Ubudian Indonesia Expert

3214POSTS

11 years ago

#19

I couldn't agree with you more, and as you well know, there are those who interpret the KITAP allowed to work statement as meaning, allowed to work in any capacity and without a work permit.聽

"I'm now awaiting the result of the election before I go further down the WNI road."

I also agree with your logic there as well.聽 If Jokowi is elected I think we all can feel relieved and look forward to more humanistic and common sense approaches to immigration and employment.

Mickael Hebert Member

11POSTS

11 years ago

#20

Hi ubudian,

If I understand well, if I have a Kitap, I can work for my wife's business Without a work permit...but if I work for another company,I'll need a Work Permit and pay $1200 for the tax(?)...am I right?

"As explained to me, its understood that a spouse is going to help the other spouse in his or her business for the benefit of the family.聽 With a KITAP the foreign spouse has clearly made a commitment in their marriage, and has proven longevity in that marriage.聽 In reality, the KITAP is just one step before full citizenship."

Kindly advise,

Ubudian Indonesia Expert

3214POSTS

11 years ago

#21

Hi Mickael,

That's my understanding, although as you know it is generally the employer who pays for the work permit and KITAS visa.聽

On the issue of working in your spouse's business with a KITAP and no work permit, that seems to be definitely OK, however, on the issue of working for another company, that's were things get murky and uncertain.聽 I've heard various interpretations, yes, and no, from reliable sources.聽 As this doesn't apply to me personally, I haven't pushed for a more definitive answer.聽

On a practical level, would immigration and POLDA be as likely to go after someone illegally working here on say a VOA, 60 day or business visa as someone on a KITAP?聽 Normally no unless there are other reasons that a particular KITAP holder is in the immigration/POLDA cross hairs, i.e. suspected criminal activity.

Is that a good enough reason to go ahead and gamble?聽 As many Balinese are found of saying, "up to you."

Mickael Hebert Member

11POSTS

11 years ago

#22

Thank you Ubudian.

happyhour ViP

1588POSTS

11 years ago

#23

In theory you may be right but I don't think it is going that way.

If a spouse sponsored KITAP holder can work for a company without company providing the RPTKA/IMTA, not paying the USD 1.200 DPKK.....then the expatriate can just come over here getting married to a local and start working for any company without having problems??

The Government will lose a lot of money, also I then wonder why the regulations getting more tough for companies/expartiates when applying for a new working KITAS.

Maybe I misunderstood your posts but in my opinion (as we all agreed) you can work to support your spouse business but can not work for a company without having the work permit from the Manpower

Ubudian Indonesia Expert

3214POSTS

11 years ago

#24

"then the expatriate can just come over here getting married to a local and start working for any company without having problems??"

Remember, in order to apply for a spouse sponsored KITAP the foreigner must have been married to the Indonesian for at least two years.聽

happyhour ViP

1588POSTS

11 years ago

#25

Yeah...I know but you will get a KITAS so basically it would be the same聽

Fred Indonesia Expert

30549POSTS

11 years ago

#26

happyhour wrote:
Yeah...I know but you will get a KITAS so basically it would be the same聽

No, it wouldn't.
Pasal 61 only applies to KITAP holders, not KITAS.

happyhour ViP

1588POSTS

11 years ago

#27

Yep....my mistake, I was to quick with my reply.

Ubudian Indonesia Expert

3214POSTS

11 years ago

#28

Can we call you something else than "happyhour?"聽

I'm trying to cut back, and every time I read one of your posts I get "thirsty."聽聽

Of course you can call Fred, Fred, Luke, Luke and me, Roy.聽 How about you?

And for what it's worth, you're a great addition to this forum!聽

Cheers!

happyhour ViP

1588POSTS

11 years ago

#29

Thanks your nice words Roy......

Understand that my nick is reminding you to get your beers on time before happhour is over...lol

Since you also asked so nicely...just call me Tom

Ubudian Indonesia Expert

3214POSTS

11 years ago

#30

GREAT!聽 Tom it is then!聽

Cheers, Roy

bundyrum Guest

0POSTS

11 years ago

#31

u can to support yer fsamily...manpower is only interested in commercial ventures..

happyhour ViP

1588POSTS

11 years ago

#32

bundyrum wrote:
u can to support yer fsamily...manpower is only interested in commercial ventures..

It's not clear to me what you are saying.....

lukereg ViP

2114POSTS

11 years ago

#33

I believe he is stating you can work on this type of visa as manpower are not interested in any kind of issue unless it is a commercial one. Therefore his advice is technically wrong. Manpower are very interested in who is working and on what kind of visa. Back to your post about it being a grey zone. But as the poster keeps mentioning corruption in his posts I am sure there are ways to grease the wheels to make people blind to what they see. Unless the KPK is involved and then you are stuck.

happyhour ViP

1588POSTS

11 years ago

#34

Thanks Luke,

The Manpower definitely is watching out and do care what kind of visa one holds and about the activities of the person.

Fred Indonesia Expert

30549POSTS

11 years ago

#35

On that point, immigration informed me of the following regarding working whilst on a wife sponsored KITAP:

If you're working for a company, manpower will get interested.

If you're helping out in your wife's business, but not overtly working, no one will look at your activities.

Of course, that's an opinion expressed by one fairly senior chap in immigration, not an absolute.

bundyrum Guest

0POSTS

11 years ago

#36

not clear it's easy...u can work to support your family food ..water .electric..petrol...etc...that law is passed...but prooly not ratified by.PRESIDENT..but manpower are really after foriegners...who work say a bar or restarranut..without licences.
and proper visas..manpower r not worried about a western husband lookn after his Indo wife and maybe kids.as long as it's not commercial.cheers...

bundyrum Guest

0POSTS

11 years ago

#37

try law...no; 6/2011...article 61...work.cheers.

bundyrum Guest

0POSTS

11 years ago

#38

as far as i know kitas holders can work too...under..article...61...52..E......kitap...article 61...54..B..

Fred Indonesia Expert

30549POSTS

11 years ago

#39

bundyrum wrote:
try law...no; 6/2011...article 61...work.cheers.

Funny old law and section.
It basically says, a foreigners on KITAP has the right to earn to support his family.
Manpower agree, but add the need for a work permit.

I have no clue if this has been tested in court.

happyhour ViP

1588POSTS

11 years ago

#40

Don't know either whether it has been tested in court but it's correct that Manpower in fact still insist to have a work permit. The Immigration and Manpower have a different view here so one could say you act in a grey area but should be fine as long you do low profile work from home and don't receive officially any income.